Originally posted by FabianFnas
To be islamo-phobic is that you have an irrational fear of every muslem, right (Compare with spider-phbic, that you don't care if it is poisonous or not, you just don't like them, even the totally harmless ones). If you are islamo-phobic and you see someone that is a moslem, has a moslem name, or coming from a moslem country, even look moslemish, then you ...[text shortened]... h, there is every wrong to be islamophobic. But it can be treated, as any other phobia.

Stop using cliches and listen to one line of commonsense.

THERE IS SUCH A THING AS A HEALTHY FEAR OF SNAKES, SPIDERS, AND ISLAM.

We simply differ on which point it becomes irrational. Often but not always education reduces certain fears, such as being able to differentiate between a poisonous snake and a harmless one. In the case of Islam the more you understand Islam the more you should be afraid of it and the fanaticism it creates.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Stop using cliches and listen to one line of commonsense.

THERE IS SUCH A THING AS A HEALTHY FEAR OF SNAKES, SPIDERS, AND ISLAM.

We simply differ on which point it becomes irrational. Often but not always education reduces certain fears, such as being able to differentiate between a poisonous snake and a harmless one. In the case of Islam the more you understand Islam the more you should be afraid of it and the fanaticism it creates.

Religious fundamentalism breeds fanaticism, whether it be Muslim or Christian. They are exactly the same in that regard. The only difference is that in the west we have stronger secular institutions to keep the fundamentalists at bay. That wall of separation between church and state is the only thing that keeps Christianity from reverting back into the fanatical and murderous religion that it was in the dark ages. If Christianity appears to be a more civil religion, it's only because we keep it on a much shorter leash.

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
I care. I wouldn't knowingly vote for an non-Christian.

Back to the point, only God knows his heart but I think he's a Chtistian.

Pete Stark, Jr. of California has been serving in the U.S. House of Representatives since 1973. He is also the only openly atheist member of Congress. He has won re-election 16 times, with his percentage of votes never dropping below 60%. Obviously there are many Christians in California who are considerably less narrow minded than you are.

Ernie Chambers served in the Nebraska State Senate for 38 years, a remarkable feat considering that he is a black, liberal, agnostic in a state that last voted Democrat in 1964. He was only removed from office due to term limitations. Even in that benighted state there are obviously many Christians who are less bigoted than you are.

Originally posted by rwingett
Religious fundamentalism breeds fanaticism, whether it be Muslim or Christian. They are exactly the same in that regard. The only difference is that in the west we have stronger secular institutions to keep the fundamentalists at bay. That wall of separation between church and state is the only thing that keeps Christianity from reverting back into the fana ...[text shortened]... nity appears to be a more civil religion, it's only because we keep it on a much shorter leash.

how many people did Christ and the early Christians murder? i want to hear you say it, how many? perhaps if you do your research you will realize that the early Christians were paraded in theaters of war, to fight with beasts as entertainment for the masses, why is seeing someone been torn alive entertaining? when we compare this too those secular institutions that you are so fond of venerating the contrast is quite stark, for they have literally the blood of millions on their hands, therefore i want you to acknowledge that modern Christianity is unrecognizable from what Christ and the early Christians taught and practiced! and furthermore i want you to publicly admit that the teachings of Christ have been superseded by secularism, which is the real reason we are in the mess we are!

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
I care. I wouldn't knowingly vote for an non-Christian.

Back to the point, only God knows his heart but I think he's a Chtistian.

Why not?

Originally posted by rwingett
Religious fundamentalism breeds fanaticism, whether it be Muslim or Christian. They are exactly the same in that regard. The only difference is that in the west we have stronger secular institutions to keep the fundamentalists at bay. That wall of separation between church and state is the only thing that keeps Christianity from reverting back into the fana ...[text shortened]... nity appears to be a more civil religion, it's only because we keep it on a much shorter leash.

True, but the dangerous type of religious fundamentalism - the kind leading to the death of others - is more common in Islam.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
how many people did Christ and the early Christians murder? i want to hear you say it, how many? perhaps if you do your research you will realize that the early Christians were paraded in theaters of war, to fight with beasts as entertainment for the masses, why is seeing someone been torn alive entertaining? when we compare this too those secular in ...[text shortened]... f Christ have been superseded by secularism, which is the real reason we are in the mess we are!

Well said.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
how many people did Christ and the early Christians murder? i want to hear you say it, how many? perhaps if you do your research you will realize that the early Christians were paraded in theaters of war, to fight with beasts as entertainment for the masses, why is seeing someone been torn alive entertaining? when we compare this too those secular in ...[text shortened]... f Christ have been superseded by secularism, which is the real reason we are in the mess we are!

If you read the "Jesus was a socialist" thread, you will clearly see that I think contemporary Christianity has little in common with the actual Jesus. But I am not condemning Jesus. I am condemning the entire bloody history of post-Constantinian Christianity. The secular enlightenment is what pulled Christianity out of the dark ages. So any supposed moral superiority that Christians may claim over Islam is entirely due to a moderating secular influence. Something that Islam has thus far lacked. The fact that there have been some secular institutions that have committed atrocities in their own right does not let Christianity off the hook.

Originally posted by rwingett
Pete Stark, Jr. of California has been serving in the U.S. House of Representatives since 1973. He is also the only openly atheist member of Congress. He has won re-election 16 times, with his percentage of votes never dropping below 60%. Obviously there are many Christians in California who are considerably less narrow minded than you are.

Ernie Chambe ...[text shortened]... n in that benighted state there are obviously many Christians who are less bigoted than you are.

People are judged by their actions as you repeatedly point out. What i find astounding is your persistent demonstrative narrow-mindedness, proved by continually ranting on about how christianity is responsible for all the ills of the world (at least that's how it sounds); as though secularists and atheists are never guilty of crimes or atrocities. You are either a fool, a bigot or a fraud; perhaps you would like to enlighten us as to which.

Originally posted by rwingett
If you read the "Jesus was a socialist" thread, you will clearly see that I think contemporary Christianity has little in common with the actual Jesus. But I am not condemning Jesus. I am condemning the entire bloody history of post-Constantinian Christianity. The secular enlightenment is what pulled Christianity out of the dark ages. So any supposed moral ...[text shortened]... ions that have committed atrocities in their own right does not let Christianity off the hook.

yes ok, apologizes for misunderstanding you, ill cut you some slack this time my illustrious friend, however now it has swung too far, with secularism trying to establish a basis for every kind of depravity and morality devoid of accountability, its now the turn of Christianity to save secularism from itself, don't you think?

Originally posted by divegeester
People are judged by their actions as you repeatedly point out. What i find astounding is your persistent demonstrative narrow-mindedness, proved by continually ranting on about how christianity is responsible for all the ills of the world (at least that's how it sounds); as though secularists and atheists are never guilty of crimes or atrocities. You are either a fool, a bigot or a fraud; perhaps you would like to enlighten us as to which.

While I do think people should be judged by their actions, I do not recall "repeatedly" pointing that out. I also do not claim that Christianity is responsible for all the ills of the world. If it sounds that way to you, then you are merely projecting your own biases onto my posts. My posts frequently attack religious fundamentalism. Because the religious fundamentalists on this site are almost exclusively Christian, I frequently attack Christian fundamentalists. I acknowledge that there are atheists who have committed their own crimes, but there does seem to be a conspicuous lack of atheist suicide bombers, for example. Likewise, you'll never see an atheist fly a jet into a skyscraper in the name of atheism. Those type of crimes are exclusively the product of religious fundamentalism.

Originally posted by rwingett
While I do think people should be judged by their actions, I do not recall "repeatedly" pointing that out. I also do not claim that Christianity is responsible for all the ills of the world. If it sounds that way to you, then you are merely projecting your own biases onto my posts. My posts frequently attack religious fundamentalism. Because the religious f ame of atheism. Those type of crimes are exclusively the product of religious fundamentalism.

You repeatedly point to the "crimes" of so called christians over the millennia, is what i was refering to. You have blamed christianity for the nazi war attrocities just because the nazis involved claimed to be christians (as though thier integrity is to be trusted either way). As I pointed out in another post, it is a persons actions which define them, not the blithering and lies which eminates from thier mouths!

Flying planes into buildings is hardly representative of thousands of years of global attrocities, and to imply so (which you frequently do using this and other religious examples) is ridiculous. Investigate a list of wars in the last two thousand years and you will see that only a few were in any way religious based. They are mostly initiated, developed and charaterised by secular motives and attrocities.

That is what i meant in my post, and i believe you knew that actually.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes ok, apologizes for misunderstanding you, ill cut you some slack this time my illustrious friend, however now it has swung too far, with secularism trying to establish a basis for every kind of depravity and morality devoid of accountability, its now the turn of Christianity to save secularism from itself, don't you think?

I disagree that secularism is "trying to establish a basis for every kind of depravity." But perhaps your definition of depravity is quite a bit broader than mine. I also disagree that secularism is trying to establish a "morality devoid of accountability." We are still held accountable for our actions in secular ethics, just not to a supernatural god. I also disagree that "secularism" is a cohesive single minded entity, as your posts seem to imply, as though all secularists are part of the same club. It is not. Secularism can take on many different characteristics.

And finally, I do not think Christianity can save secularism (not that it needs saving). Christianity should be more worried about saving itself. The tighter it clings to its shopworn mythology, the less and less relevant it is going to become to people's lives in the modern world. Like Bishop Spong, I think Christianity needs a major overhaul for the 21st century. I think that would be a worthwhile project.

Originally posted by rwingett
I disagree that secularism is "trying to establish a basis for every kind of depravity." But perhaps your definition of depravity is quite a bit broader than mine. I also disagree that secularism is trying to establish a "morality devoid of accountability." We are still held accountable for our actions in secular ethics, just not to a supernatural god. I al a major overhaul for the 21st century. I think that would be a worthwhile project.

The christianity you are refering to is in no way connected (albeit by name) to what myself and i dare say many christian posters on this sight believe. There is only one answer to the depravity and chaos that secularism and greed has brought this world to and it ain't Mr O!

Originally posted by divegeester
You repeatedly point to the "crimes" of so called christians over the millennia, is what i was refering to. You have blamed christianity for the nazi war attrocities just because the nazis involved claimed to be christians (as though thier integrity is to be trusted either way). As I pointed out in another post, it is a persons actions which define the ...[text shortened]... ves and attrocities.

That is what i meant in my post, and i believe you knew that actually.

I most certainly did not blame Christianity for the Nazi holocaust. My point in that thread was that our esteemed robbie carrobie could be considered the moral equivalent of a Nazi because he would not disavow divinely inspired genocide. His religionus beliefs required him to defend genocide (actually, he went to extraordinary lengths to avoid condemning it). My secondary point was that since many Nazis were Christian, it is evident that being a Christian does not make one any less susceptible to committing atrocities. If you believe that genocide can be justified on religious grounds, it may make you more susceptible to them.

A person who has a secular axe to grind is far less likely to martyr himself if he does not believe in a heavenly reward. The cause of his anger may be secular in nature, but the action he subsequently takes is conditioned by his religious beliefs. The fact is that religious fundamentalism breeds martyrs.