1. Standard memberHalitose
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    21 Dec '05 21:49
    A religion of peace? A religion that inspires terrorism? A bit of both depending on which part of the Qur'an and Hadith you emphasise?


    * Footnote – I’m certainly not, in any way, attempting to generalise Muslims as terrorists; this is merely an attempt to understand what would inspire both deeds of greatness and at the same time, some of the most horrible atrocities.
  2. Standard memberKnightWulfe
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    21 Dec '05 21:52
    Halitose - It is the same way with Christianity - The Crusades and the Inquisition. Both were Christian driven and bloodly atrocities.

    How are they any different?
  3. Forgotten
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    21 Dec '05 21:521 edit
    islam was founded by ishmael who was the brother of israel
    ishmael was caught worshipping the devil and was cast out of the
    jewish tribes
  4. Forgotten
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    21 Dec '05 22:03
    Originally posted by KnightWulfe
    Halitose - It is the same way with Christianity - The Crusades and the Inquisition. Both were Christian driven and bloodly atrocities.

    How are they any different?
    i think its like they are 2 sides of the same coin
    a yin and yang kind of thing
    seems theres the possitve of judeo xian
    and the negetive of islam
    or if i was of islamic background im sure id view it as opposite
    i am not slamming islam or backing christians
    its just my view point
  5. Donationrwingett
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    21 Dec '05 22:13
    Originally posted by Halitose
    A religion of peace? A religion that inspires terrorism? A bit of both depending on which part of the Qur'an and Hadith you emphasise?


    * Footnote – I’m certainly not, in any way, attempting to generalise Muslims as terrorists; this is merely an attempt to understand what would inspire both deeds of greatness and at the same time, some of the most horrible atrocities.
    If christianity seems more peaceful than Islam its only because they've been forced into that position, kicking and screaming, by a few centuries of rational thought. Islam is what christianity would be today if it had not been for the Enlightenment.
  6. Standard memberVillager
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    21 Dec '05 22:531 edit
    I think Islam is very seldom conveyed accurately in the West. We may receive accurate representations of how Islam is practiced today, but it only takes a little research to see that few, if any, countries today practice Islam in the classical sense. The modern version is undeniably violent, repressive and unappealing, but I'm not sure if any substantial part of this is derived from the religion itself. Just as Christianity has fractured into a thousand pieces according to varying interpretations, so various cultures have diluted and changed Islam. The 'proper', 'original', or classical interpretation survives, though, and if that's what you want to talk about then you need some serious knowledge.

    I have many Muslim friends, and they uniformly lament the condition of Muslim society around the world. Uneducated poor people for the most part, susceptible to misrepresentations of their faith.

    One of the most important features of Islam is that, on precise points of law, there is a systematic approach for deriving interpretations (Usool al-Fiqh). This means that unless something is stated unequivocally in the Qur'an or Hadith, it is not appropriate for you, me or any ordinary Muslim to interpret it as we see fit. To give an example, I have heard justifications of wifebeating putatively supported by a Qur'anic verse. I then heard a scholar of some repute refute this interpretation, explaining that a particular word had a more subtle meaning than was being conveyed: it meant that if your wife is severely out of line, you should 'tap' her lightly as a symbolic way of showing how badly she was behaving (as opposed to beat), and that it even had connotations of intimate affections and (reconciliation) sex. There seem to be similar nuances concerning justification for Jew-hating, suicide bombing and so forth, but I am not the person to give you authoritative detail.

    My dissertation concerns Jihad and suicide bombing. As far as Jihad is concerned, it seems clear what has happened. Jihad itself means 'to struggle' or 'to strive in the way of God' - which can mean anything from providing food for your family or defending your land from invaders. It has become a pejorative term, signifying mad men in pursuit of eternal paradise through violence. I can't be bothered to go into detail, but suicide bombing is rejected by all but the modern Wahhabbist and Salafist schools of thought. It is an innovation.

    Returning to the general theme, I find no evidence that Islam is unduly violent. It is certainly not as pacifistic as Christianity, as there are clear guidelines as to when and how violence or war should be considered. I am also reassured of principles that override everything else, such as that unless there is a clear punishment demanded of a particular crime, mercy is the favoured option. In fact, from what I can gather, 'proper' Islam features nothing concerning violence that I find disagreeable.

    As I said, though, you need a lot of knowledge to give authoritative interpretations of complex points. I don't have that. Perhaps Peachy has greater knowledge.
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    21 Dec '05 22:53
    I would hazard a guess that c. 0.01 per cent of users of this site have the first idea about Islam.

    I include myself in the 99.99 per cent.
  8. Standard memberOmnislash
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    22 Dec '05 06:33
    Originally posted by Villager
    I think Islam is very seldom conveyed accurately in the West. We may receive accurate representations of how Islam is practiced today, but it only takes a little research to see that few, if any, countries today practice Islam in the classical sense. The modern version is undeniably violent, repressive and unappealing, but I'm not sure if any substantial p ...[text shortened]... ive interpretations of complex points. I don't have that. Perhaps Peachy has greater knowledge.
    Well said. I agree with much of this (if not all).

    Within my own theological discussion circles I have and do frequently make comparison of modern Islam to that of the Christian church not so very long ago (16th century? I'm bad with dates).

    Seems to me the muslims need their own version of Luther to step up and nail some demands to a mosque (or some similar event). 😉
  9. Standard memberOmnislash
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    22 Dec '05 06:341 edit
    Originally posted by dottewell
    I would hazard a guess that c. 0.01 per cent of users of this site have the first idea about Islam.

    I include myself in the 99.99 per cent.
    Perhaps we can make a thread about the matter, giving some insight into the Islam religion. Cover the basics of the religion if you will.
    I would not nominate myself, as I confess that my views towards Islam are not partial.
  10. Colorado
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    22 Dec '05 07:13
    Originally posted by dottewell
    I would hazard a guess that c. 0.01 per cent of users of this site have the first idea about Islam.

    I include myself in the 99.99 per cent.
    I would hazard a guess that c. 0.01 per cent of people in general have the first idea about any religion.

    I include myself in the 99.99 per cent.
  11. Standard memberHalitose
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    22 Dec '05 07:26
    Originally posted by rwingett
    If christianity seems more peaceful than Islam its only because they've been forced into that position, kicking and screaming, by a few centuries of rational thought. Islam is what christianity would be today if it had not been for the Enlightenment.
    Eh? You are saying that civilization civilized Christianity? I always thought it was the other way around... (to a lesser degree)
  12. Standard memberHalitose
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    22 Dec '05 07:28
    Originally posted by KnightWulfe
    Halitose - It is the same way with Christianity - The Crusades and the Inquisition. Both were Christian driven and bloodly atrocities.

    How are they any different?
    Christians follow the teachings of Jesus Christ; Muslims follow the teachings of Muhammed.

    IMO there are quite a few differences.
  13. Cape Town
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    22 Dec '05 07:29
    Originally posted by Halitose
    A religion of peace? A religion that inspires terrorism? A bit of both depending on which part of the Qur'an and Hadith you emphasise?
    There is almost no difference between Christianity and Islam when it comes to violence. I have a number of muslim friends and they do not agree in any way with terrorism and say it is against Islam. Christians in the past have commited many attrocities in the name of Christianity and martyrdom is nothing new to Christians.
    What I believe is that a large component of culture and genral human behaviour is at play in both religions and great acts of good and bad can often be attributed to the people in question and not the religion they follow. There are many factors that result in violence. They include things like lack of education, poverty, strongly religious society, a history of violence, cultural tendencies, tribalism / racisim etc. Almost all violence within a country occurs when the country is divided into two main ethinic groups which both have strong identity complexes in thier culture. Religion is often just used as and excuse or justification for violence and is not the root cause.
  14. Subscriberno1marauder
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    22 Dec '05 07:30
    Originally posted by Halitose
    Eh? You are saying that civilization civilized Christianity? I always thought it was the other way around... (to a lesser degree)
    You're really not kidding with your Forum title.
  15. Territories Unknown
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    22 Dec '05 07:32
    Originally posted by rwingett
    If christianity seems more peaceful than Islam its only because they've been forced into that position, kicking and screaming, by a few centuries of rational thought. Islam is what christianity would be today if it had not been for the Enlightenment.
    Beg to differ. Christianity has not changed since its inception.
    The power-hungry, the political, have done what they could to use it as either shield or sword, but Christianity remains the same.
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