Islam

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Yes. That's the standard Catholic defence when people bring up, say, the excesses of the conquistadors. No reason Islamic apologists shouldn't get to use it too.

How do you relate the excesses of the conquistadors with Catholic Statehood?

Originally posted by sjeg
HA!

Interesting article here: http://answering-islam.org.uk/Hahn/jihad.htm

I think it's time for peaceful Muslims to wage a jihad against war-mongers...

Originally posted by lucifershammer
How do you relate the excesses of the conquistadors with Catholic Statehood?

The conquistadors were Spanish, citizens of a Catholic state. Detractors of Catholicism will say, look at the terrible things the conquistadors did. They were Catholic; their religion was to blame. A common rebuttal of that is, they were following the orders of their king and queen--who, despite being Catholic, in their capacity as rulers, were acting against the tenets of their non-violent religion.

Originally posted by Halitose
Which heap of sand have you been sticking your head into? "Western Civilization" has long been synonymous with Christianity. While Christianity hasn't been the sole source of philosophical thought for the past two millennia, it certainly played a none too small role in developing it.

My understanding was that "western civilisation" owed a very large part of its knowledge to islamic scolars and one reason for the islamic empires not being as big and "advanced" as the Christian ones was due to wars between the two empires.

Originally posted by twhitehead
and one reason for the islamic empires not being as big and "advanced" as the Christian ones was due to wars between the two empires.

IIRC, didn't the Islamic empires win their wars against the Christians? How can you blame the losing side for halting the progress of the winning side??

Originally posted by twhitehead
My understanding was that "western civilisation" owed a very large part of its knowledge to islamic scolars and one reason for the islamic empires not being as big and "advanced" as the Christian ones was due to wars between the two empires.

At one stage in history the Muslims were considerably more civilised than their Frankish counterparts--especially in terms of hygiene. The great Western breakthrough came with the wealth accrued subsequent to the voyages of discovery. Religion & philosophy had precious little to do with it.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
IIRC, didn't the Islamic empires win their wars against the Christians? How can you blame the losing side for halting the progress of the winning side??

The Ottoman Empire simply ran out of steam. They had reached their limit. Failing to capture Vienna in the 1680s, the Empire dwindled into the Old Man of Europe. At the same time, the Spanish and Portuguese were consolidating their overseas empires.

Originally posted by Starrman
Before Constantine took Christianity to the bosom of the Roman Empire, it was pretty much an uncivilised sect of religion. The Roman Empire on the other hand had been considered the most civilized in the world for several centuaries. When Constantine died, the collapse of the empire began and about 100 years later, it was pretty much finished. It is argu ...[text shortened]... could lay out what benefits to the advancement of civilisation in Europe Christianity has made?

When Constantine died, the collapse of the empire began and about 100 years later, it was pretty much finished. It is arguably in part to Christianity that this decline could be attributed.

So you agree with Edward Gibbon's theory in The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire? I tend to think that it was more of an inevitable transformation with much of Roman culture still contained within Medieval culture.

The dark ages which then ensued (a cessation of scholastic pursuit, political structure and cultural advancement), set civilisation of Europe back several hundred years.

Really? Didn't many of the monasteries preserve Roman/Classical culture from the marauding Huns/barbarians?

I'd say that Christianity was in part responsible for the decline in civilisation in the history of Europe.

Could you be more specific.

As to the contemporary era, Christianity set philosophical and scientific pursuits back until the late 1600s since the pursuit of scholistic and cultural study was fettered by the potential for heretical labelling.

And yet many important scientific discoveries and works of art were achieved during this "dark-uncultured time" (pre-1600s). I'm thinking of Michelangelo's predominantly Christian art themes and Leonardo da Vinci, who pioneered human anatomy and scientific concepts of inertia. The list carry's on. * The architecture of the time could hardly have been considered "uncultured".

I'd say that the civilisation of the western world is due in part to Christianity, only as a force against which to strive.

I strongly disagree. (Your statement may be true for the last couple decades, perhaps; but then again contemporary culture has hardly become something to boast about, IMHO)

* Note to Bosse: This is not another parading of "cool Christians".

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
I think it's time for peaceful Muslims to wage a jihad against war-mongers...

The problem is if someone from the Islamic community speaks out about e.g. 9/11, they are generally expected by the Western media to follow certain rules. Not only must they condemn it utterly and entirely (which they will), but they must also not cloud the issue by trying to explain _why_ it happened; specifically, they must not in any way criticise Western involvement with Islamic countries (e.g. Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.) or mention the words "Palestine" or "Israel".

If they do, they will almost invariably be portrayed as being on "their" side against "ours".

Originally posted by lucifershammer
IIRC, didn't the Islamic empires win their wars against the Christians? How can you blame the losing side for halting the progress of the winning side??

The cultural centre of Europe during the 8th-12th centurary could have been considered to be Andalucia in the South of Spain. Here Muslim, Jew and Christian society lived in harmony for a great deal of time and to many people's advantages. Jewish scholars and poets, Muslim medicine (interestingly enough the first surgical tools were developed in Cordoba) music and science all flourished. When the Christians eventually took over the area under Ferdinand 3rd, nearly all of this wealth of academic and cultural treasure was lost or destroyed. The Christians built a Cathedral in the very centre of the largest mosque in Europe. Islamic development in Spain was near enough extinguished and consequently Islam retreated to Africa and the Middle East.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
The Ottoman Empire simply ran out of steam. They had reached their limit. Failing to capture Vienna in the 1680s, the Empire dwindled into the Old Man of Europe. At the same time, the Spanish and Portuguese were consolidating their overseas empires.

The post-1700's could hardly have been considered medieval.

Surely, some one else must see the irony that in a thread titled "Islam", there are almost as many/as many/more posts regarding Christianity.

I think our narrow mindedness, as a community, is blatent in this instance. Most unfortunate. 🙁

Originally posted by Halitose
I tend to think that it was more of an inevitable transformation with much of Roman culture still contained within Medieval culture. //
Really? Didn't many of the monasteries preserve Roman/Classical culture from the marauding Huns/barbarians?//And yet many important scientific discoveries and works of art were achieved during this "dark-uncultured time" (pre-1600s).

You can't throw all of Western Europe into one mediaval basket. The Scandinavian countries were pagan until around the 10th century. Northern and Southern Europe were rather different, too--the cold Germanic and sunny Latin countries. Evidence of (Greek and Roman) Mediterranean culture is obvious in, say, the South of France. Not so easy to find it in countries which were civilised more tenuously and for shorter periods (e.g. Scotland!).

The monasteries preserved what they could. Access to the information was restricted to monks, many of whom were illiterate. The Roman past acquired a sort of legendary glaze. I have an Old English poem about ruined cities--the author speculates that the ruins must have been built by giants, ignorant that they were in fact built by the Romans.

There's no doubt that Christianity was a vital cultural force throughout the mediaval period. At the same time, the true (IMO) reason for the rise of the West was a combination of technological breakthrough and imperial ambition. In England, for example, a rich Catholic tradition was shattered by an ambitious Henry VIII, who pretty much paved the way for the British Empire.

(The Renaissance began in Italy in the 12-1300s; it took longer in other countries).

Originally posted by Omnislash
Surely, some one else must see the irony that in a thread titled "Islam", there are almost as many/as many/more posts regarding Christianity.

I think our narrow mindedness, as a community, is blatent in this instance. Most unfortunate. 🙁

One might think it was only brought up to be unfavourably compared with Christianity.

Originally posted by Omnislash
Surely, some one else must see the irony that in a thread titled "Islam", there are almost as many/as many/more posts regarding Christianity.

I think our narrow mindedness, as a community, is blatent in this instance. Most unfortunate. 🙁

It has been most frustrating.