Originally posted by FreakyKBH Beg to differ. Christianity has not changed since its inception.
The power-hungry, the political, have done what they could to use it as either shield or sword, but Christianity remains the same.
That obviously depends on your meaning of the word "Christianity". If it is taken to mean "the belief held by followers of Jesus Christ" then yes it not only changes all the time but differs from vastly denomination to denomination and from individual to individual.
If you have a nother meaning for the word, please elaborate.
Originally posted by no1marauder You're really not kidding with your Forum title.
Which heap of sand have you been sticking your head into? "Western Civilization" has long been synonymous with Christianity. While Christianity hasn't been the sole source of philosophical thought for the past two millennia, it certainly played a none too small role in developing it.
Originally posted by twhitehead There is almost no difference between Christianity and Islam when it comes to violence. I have a number of muslim friends and they do not agree in any way with terrorism and say it is against Islam. Christians in the past have commited many attrocities in the name of Christianity and martyrdom is nothing new to Christians.
What I believe is that a large ...[text shortened]... ligion is often just used as and excuse or justification for violence and is not the root cause.
Originally posted by Halitose [b]...martyrdom is nothing new to Christians.
And suicide bombings?[/b]
Christianity today preaches quite strongly against suicide. That is a good thing. However many many Christians in the past and even today claim to "die for thier beliefs" or "die for thier God". At the same time many people also appear to feel that it is moraly just to kill civilians (in Iraq for example) as long as the "greater good" is being achieved. And to date I would say that as a rough guess more people have been killed by Christians in the war on terror than have been killed by Muslims in the reverse struggle.
Islam preaches strongly against the abuse of alcohol and that has probably saved more lives than the preaching against suicide.
The extreme violence that took place in northern ireland was just as bad as the current suicide bombings and was perpetrated by Christians. The fact that they did not take thier own lives does not somehow make it less wrong. In fact a suicide bomber is evidence that the perpetrator did actually believe in his cause and was not doing it for financial or political gain.
Originally posted by twhitehead Christianity today preaches quite strongly against suicide. That is a good thing. However many many Christians in the past and even today claim to "die for thier beliefs" or "die for thier God". At the same time many people also appear to feel that it is moraly just to kill civilians (in Iraq for example) as long as the "greater good" is being achie ...[text shortened]... petrator did actually believe in his cause and was not doing it for financial or political gain.
You are missing an essential point here. There is a big difference between dying for your beliefs (an aspect not limited only to religion) and killing others in an act of suicide. If you think that you can tar this all with the same brush, you are much mistaken.
Also, it was not my intention to discuss what adherents to religions "feel" like as you always find people "feeling" differently about different things. My intention with this thread was to look at the heart of the issue -- the teachings of Muhammed.
Lastly, you are much mistaken when you refer to the political/military "War on Terror" as an inherently Christian endeavor - drawing the battle lines across religious beliefs.
Originally posted by Halitose You are missing an essential point here. There is a big difference between dying for your beliefs (an aspect not limited only to religion) and killing others in an act of suicide. If you think that you can tar this all with the same brush, you are much mistaken.
I would definately "tar with the same brush" the killing of others in an act of suicide and the killing of others by any other means but for a similar purpose.
Also, it was not my intention to discuss what adherents to religions "feel" like as you always find people "feeling" differently about different things. My intention with this thread was to look at the heart of the issue -- the teachings of Muhammed.
I have asked a number of my muslim friends and all of them have said that suicide bombing is not acceptable in Islam and is not part of the teachings of Muhammed.
The Bible however does clearly teach that the Jews have the right to wipe out any other group of people if instructed to do so by God.
Lastly, you are much mistaken when you refer to the political/military "War on Terror" as an inherently Christian endeavor - drawing the battle lines across religious beliefs.
It is however being conducted mostly by people who claim to be Christian and therefore is acceptable within thier understanding of thier religion.
Originally posted by twhitehead I would definately "tar with the same brush" the killing of others in an act of suicide and the killing of others by any other means but for a similar purpose.
[b]Also, it was not my intention to discuss what adherents to religions "feel" like as you always find people "feeling" differently about different things. My intention with this thread wa ...[text shortened]... claim to be Christian and therefore is acceptable within thier understanding of thier religion.
[/b][/b]As you are one of the big proponents of people understanding other religions, I would advise you to practice what you preach. Genocide by divine decree is certainly not one of Christ's teachings – neither is killing for political/religious expediency.
I would definately "tar with the same brush" the killing of others in an act of suicide and the killing of others by any other means but for a similar purpose.
That is a clumsy side-step. I was referring to your comparison of Christian martyrdom and Muslim Suicide bombing.
Originally posted by Halitose As you are one of the big proponents of people understanding other religions, I would advise you to practice what you preach. Genocide by divine decree is certainly not one of Christ's teachings – neither is killing for political/religious expediency.
It was not Christs teaching but it is definately a teaching in the Old Testament and was practiced by the Jews more than once.
That is a clumsy side-step. I was referring to your comparison of Christian martyrdom and Muslim Suicide bombing.
I do agree with you that they are not the same at all and realise that most people refered to as martyrs in the Christian faith did not kill anyone. However you must also agree that it is the killing of others that is the main crime in a suicide bombing and not the suicide and thus is simmilar to many instances of Christians killing others while claiming a religious cause. I was also pointing out that the separate issue of dying for your belief is not unknown to Christians.
Your implications in your posts is that suicide bombing is somehow more heinous than any other form of killing.
Originally posted by Halitose Which heap of sand have you been sticking your head into? "Western Civilization" has long been synonymous with Christianity. While Christianity hasn't been the sole source of philosophical thought for the past two millennia, it certainly played a none too small role in developing it.
Before Constantine took Christianity to the bosom of the Roman Empire, it was pretty much an uncivilised sect of religion. The Roman Empire on the other hand had been considered the most civilized in the world for several centuaries. When Constantine died, the collapse of the empire began and about 100 years later, it was pretty much finished. It is arguably in part to Christianity that this decline could be attributed. The dark ages which then ensued (a cessation of scholastic pursuit, political structure and cultural advancement), set civilisation of Europe back several hundred years. I'd say that Christianity was in part responsible for the decline in civilisation in the history of Europe.
As to the contemporary era, Christianity set philosophical and scientific pursuits back until the late 1600s since the pursuit of scholistic and cultural study was fettered by the potential for heretical labelling.
I'd say that the civilisation of the western world is due in part to Christianity, only as a force against which to strive. Perhaps you could lay out what benefits to the advancement of civilisation in Europe Christianity has made?
Originally posted by Starrman Perhaps you could lay out what benefits to the advancement of civilisation in Europe Christianity has made?
By getting themselves wiped out, the Byzantines made quite a contribution to the Renaissance (enforced dissemination of knowledge). Of course the Turks wiped them out so it's not clear who should get the credit.
I'm racking my brains (what's left of them) but I can't think of any specifically Christian contribution to philosophy that didn't adopt another system as a starting point--neo-Platonism, Aquinas' Aristotelian method of inquiry--what else? A quantity of mystics...Nietzsche's philosophy owes much to Christianity--kicking against the pricks--but he isn't taken too seriously in Anglo-American philosophy departments. Then again I know little enough so do fill in the gaps in my knowledge if you can.
Originally posted by Halitose A religion of peace? A religion that inspires terrorism? A bit of both depending on which part of the Qur'an and Hadith you emphasise?
* Footnote – I’m certainly not, in any way, attempting to generalise Muslims as terrorists; this is merely an attempt to understand what would inspire both deeds of greatness and at the same time, some of the most horrible atrocities.
When Buddhist monks advocate war, why should Islamist terrorism surprise anyone?
Originally posted by Halitose A religion of peace? A religion that inspires terrorism? A bit of both depending on which part of the Qur'an and Hadith you emphasise?
* Footnote – I’m certainly not, in any way, attempting to generalise Muslims as terrorists; this is merely an attempt to understand what would inspire both deeds of greatness and at the same time, some of the most horrible atrocities.
Suicide, as I understand it, is mentioned once in the Koran - people are told not to do it.
It is mentioned more than once in the Hadith, which says people who commit suicide will go to hell.
Taking innocent life is forbidden by Islam.
People should be clear whether they are talking about
*Islam, and the mainstream interpretations of Islamic texts
*"Extremist" Islam, which most Islamic teachers would say was a distortion of the religion
*Islamic states, where the state may be partly shaped by religion (or an intepretation of that religion) but is not indentical with it. A criticism of an Islamic state is not necessarily a criticism of Islam.
Originally posted by dottewell *Islamic states, where the state may be partly shaped by religion (or an intepretation of that religion) but is not indentical with it. A criticism of an Islamic state is not necessarily a criticism of Islam.
Yes. That's the standard Catholic defence when people bring up, say, the excesses of the conquistadors. No reason Islamic apologists shouldn't get to use it too.
Islam
22 Dec '05 08:56
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