It desires to have you

Originally posted by sonship
Forgive me KellyJay, But I feel to dwell a little more on [b]Romans 8:1.

It is true that there is no eternal condemantion to those justified in Christ's redemption. But this passage has a context of being freed from self condemnation of bemoaning - "Wretched man that I am. Who will deliver me from the body of this death?"

This freedom of be ...[text shortened]... the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. [/quote][/b]

KellyJay's OP question was "Without God does anyone avoid sin"?

My questions to you are "With God does anyone avoid sin? Or do your sins not matter because you claim you are "with God"?

Romans 7 and 8 show one law is overpowered by another law.
One "who" is overpowered by a stronger "Who"[/b].

One evil person with a law is overcome by a stronger Person Jesus Christ, with His innate and spontaneous law.

These truths are appropriated by faith.
If you rise in the morning and the first thing you do is SPEAK the divine facts the divine grace will begin to flow in your life.

So you awake and utter with heart turned towards Jesus Christ -

"There is now NO CONDEMNATION to those who are in Christ Jesus."

"There is now NO CONDEMNATION ... to THOSE ... who are in Christ Jesus."

You SPEAK. You speak the reality, the truth, the divine promises of God, You speak your way into the experience by faith.

" For the law of the Spirit of life has FREED ME in Christ Jesus ..."

For the LAW of the Spirit of life has FREED ME in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death."

The whole rest of chapter 8 elaborates how we can utilize this truth of the indwelling Spirit of life in the regenerated human spirit to be freed in the living and available Person of Christ Jesus.

No Christian ever can graduate from Romans 8.
How can any Christian ever consider he or she is somehow graduated from Romans 8. The thought of it is ridiculous.

Originally posted by sonship
There is now NO CONDEMNATION ... to THOSE ... who are in Christ Jesus.

If there is "no condemnation" and "sin" is already forgiven, what is the "judgement" about?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Genesis 4 NIV
6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

Without God does anyone avoid sin?

Without God does anyone avoid sin?

Without God indwelling the regenerated man how could we possibly overcome the law of sin and death which is in us since the fall of man?

"Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of this death.

Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, btu with the flesh, the law of sin." (Rom. 7:25)

I think it should be appreciated that the person exclaiming here - "Wretched man that I am" is not your typical down and low perpetrator of evil deeds. He is a zealous, religious, good seeking, God fearing devoted Jewish rabbi.

This is a man who we would consider today as a good deed doing clean and respectable zealot for high ethics.

This was Paul's experience. It is also the experience of everyone who is trying on their own power to completely do the good which is in their ethical minds to do. A different law in him is dragging him down eventually and leaving him with the feeling of self condemnation and wretchedness. He feels like a zombie to evil doing.

Some feel this and fight back with apathy.
Some feel this and fight back by embracing and bragging about their wretched state.
Some feel this and fight back by excusing themselves. Perhaps they feel that at least they are not as bad as someone else over there.

Whatever means the person has to counteract this wretched condition of being sin infested, God's answer is to forgive #1, grant resurrection and eternal life #2, and impart this more powerful Son of God into us bringing into us a more powerful law of life.

Once again I love this passage which shows both God's judicial redemption AND His indwelling "organic" salvation in the life of Christ blended with our lives.

"For if we being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled." (Rom. 5:10)

Reconclied - forgiven, justified, absolved from guilt for the deeds done, atoned for and brought into fellowship with an eternally righteous and holy God.

Much more SAVED in His LIFE - receiving this God INTO us through Jesus the Lord whose available life can blend with us, combine with us, be incorporated in us, and mingle with us bringing us into a sphere of rescue on a daily basis.

Originally posted by FMF
If there is "no condemnation" and "sin" is already forgiven, what is the "judgement" about?

There is a condition in that verse which sonship conveniently leaves out.

The passage means
No condemnation to those Christians who walk after the spirit.
The implication is that there is condemnation to those Christians who walk after the flesh

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 7:25-8:1 KJV)

Originally posted by Rajk999
There is a condition in that verse which sonship conveniently leaves out.

The passage means
No condemnation to those Christians who walk after the spirit.
The implication is that there is condemnation to those Christians who walk after the flesh

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but wi ...[text shortened]... e in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 7:25-8:1 KJV)

There is a condition in that verse which sonship conveniently leaves out.
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I did not conveniently leave it out. I simply have not gotten to it yet.


The passage means
No condemnation to those Christians who walk after the spirit.
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This is correct. Or the verse certainly includes the necessity of walking according to the mingled spirit.


The implication is that there is condemnation to those Christians who walk after the flesh
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I agree.
The feeling of self wretchedness in this chapter is countered by setting the mind on the regenerated spirit where the Spirit of God Who is the Spirit of Christ and Who is Christ Himself is.

In salivating to debate me Rajk999 has anticipated some good things which should also be said.

See? It all depends on what is said. I have no knee-jerk reaction against this poster.


I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 7:25-8:1 KJV)
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Amen.
Good job.

Now do you really think Romans 8 is too elementary and milk-ish for most Christians ? I'll never graduate from this splendid chapter.

Originally posted by sonship
Forgive me KellyJay, But I feel to dwell a little more on [b]Romans 8:1.

It is true that there is no eternal condemantion to those justified in Christ's redemption. But this passage has a context of being freed from self condemnation of bemoaning - "Wretched man that I am. Who will deliver me from the body of this death?"

This freedom of be ...[text shortened]... the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. [/quote][/b]

No need to be for given, aside from the personal attacks I thought everyone has brought up thought provoking points.

Originally posted by Rajk999
There is a condition in that verse which sonship conveniently leaves out.

The passage means
No condemnation to those Christians who walk after the spirit.
The implication is that there is condemnation to those Christians who walk after the flesh

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but wi ...[text shortened]... e in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 7:25-8:1 KJV)

So let me agree with and reinforce what is said here.

As you read on in Romans 8 Paul elaborates on how the Christian as to walk according to the mingled spirit.

What do I mean by the mingled spirit? It means that the human spirit has not been combined with the Holy Spirit. One part of the Christians being is Jesus Christ.

That's right. You heard me right. One part of the Christians' being is one with Christ, blended with Christ and IS Christ.

This is not sentimental talk. This is the truth. How else could Paul say, It is is Christ Who lives in me. The man knew, he knew, he knew what had happened to him. He pioneered as so did John and Peter and James and others

"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)

The opposite of "one spirit" would be "more than one spirit". The Bible is saying that to the born again man, her innermost being has become "one spirit" out of more than one spirit, ie. two spirits.

The Holy Spirit which is Jesus Christ Himself in His form as "a life giving Spirit" has united with the human born again spirit to become ONE.

"Jesus Christ lives in me" is not meant to be sentimental talk.
It is to speak according to the reality of the promises of God, the faithful God.

My born again spirit is made "one spirit" with Jesus Christ in His form as the Holy Spirit. This is the reality I must walk step by step by. This is the mingled spirit which allows Jesus with His sin overcoming powerful life to act in me as "power steering" acts in the automobile.

Now if someone says that it does not matter if you SPEAK these things, I would say that that is absolutely WRONG. To enter into the experience you better SPEAK.

" Lord Jesus, today, I am ONE SPIRIT with You the Lord. Lord Jesus You are the law of the Spirit of life ... more powerful, stronger, living, available to me. Lord Jesus I set my mind on the united spirit where You and I are ONE. "

This is part of the recovery of the normal Christian church life. This is the recovery of living in the kingdom of the heavens.

No arguing today !!!

Look beloveds. Look and compare these two verses. COMPARE THEM.

" ... it is no longer I that work it out but sin that dwells in me." (Romans 7:20)

This is the problem.
Consider now the solution of the New Testament.

"It is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me ..." (Gal. 2:20)

See?

It is not I but SIN that indwells me.
Is is no longer I that live but Christ that lives in me.

Can you see this? The strong law of sin is a personified Satan.
He can be overpowered by a stronger law of life in the Person of the Son of God.

it all hinges on union with the stronger One, the more poweful One, the Righteous One, the One who can become "one spirit" to the believer in Jesus Christ.

Now look.

This reality of Christ living in Paul is appropriated, activated, and set into motion ---- "BY FAITH".

Look at the rest of the verse of Galatians 2:20.

" I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me;

and the life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me."

You see. Faith is the catalyst to activate the reality of what God has done. You and I are left with NOTHING ... to boast about or brag about in ourselves.

Now, a little more. The next sentence shows that this reality of living Christ, living through Christ, and allowing Christ to live in us, to live OUT FROM us is the subjective grace of God which we should not nullify.

"I do not nullify the grace of God; "

Originally posted by sonship
[b] There is a condition in that verse which sonship conveniently leaves out.
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I did not conveniently leave it out. I simply have not gotten to it yet.


The passage means
No condemnation to those Christians who walk after the spirit.
...[text shortened]... oo elementary and milk-ish for most Christians ? I'll never graduate from this splendid chapter.[/b]

Romans 8 is elementary milk. Its childish stuff and basic doctrine.
Paul said to stop repeating these kinds of doctrines over and over and move on to higher matters... the meat the strong meat... the good stuff.

If you rather constantly repeat this basic doctine then your senses are dull and your understanding stagnated.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Romans 8 is elementary milk. Its childish stuff and basic doctrine.
Paul said to stop repeating this same doctrine over and over and move on to higher matters... the meat the strong meat... the good stuff.

If you rather constantly repeat this basic doctine then your senses are dull and your understanding stagnated.

I know I am repetitious.

I repeat until one day God opens up the eyes of some readers and they see it.

JESUS CHRIST can live in me. Jesus Christ can save me and become One LIVING ... in me.

And if I repeat this in different ways 100 times I don't care.

Now look at another "elementary" truth of the New Testament this afternoon.
The Holy Spirit is a living and mysterious Person - Jesus Christ in His form to be able to come into man's innermost kernel.

And the Holy Spirit then can become the power to execute to death the sinful deeds of the sin filled body. Right here. Right here ---

" .. but if you by the Spirit put to death the practices of the body, you will live." (Rom. 8:13b)

Don't tell me what I conveniently left out. I am focusing at this moment on this profound truth. We can by means of the Holy Spirit put to DEATH the practices of the body. You know the "body of this death" which Paul bemoaned about in chapter 7.

Use the Spirit of Christ to put to death the sinful practices of the body.
This is how Paul learned to say that he was crucified with Christ.

This is really elaborated on in Romans chapter 6 even BEFORE Paul comes to chapter 8. But you have to understand the Spirit of divine life in Christ Jesus and its more powerful and liberating ability to really get into the experience of chapter 6.

Anyway the Spirit of Jesus Christ has life imparting power and also killing power.
He kills OFF the evil practices that enslave the sinner.

As "life giving Spirit" Jesus Christ within can also give life to our mortal bodies.

"And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also ... GIVE LIFE ... to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you." (Rom. 8: 11)

Sinners, our hands are a problem.
Our eyes are a problem.
Our tongue is a problem.
Our feet are a problem.
Our mouth is a problem.
The members of our body act out the sinning force working in us.

God in Jesus Christ can put to death the practices of the body.
And God in Jesus Christ can GIVE LIFE to our mortal bodies.
For this Jesus Christ has to become indwelling in us.

And for this to happen FIRST we must be forgiven and justified, redeemed by His blood for reconciliation to a perfect and righteous, holy uncreated God.

Originally posted by sonship
I know I am repetitious.

I repeat until one day God opens up the eyes of some readers and they see it.

[b]JESUS CHRIST can live in me. Jesus Christ can save me and become One LIVING ... in me.

And if I repeat this in different ways 100 times I don't care.

Now look at another "elementary" truth of the New Testament this afternoon.
The Holy ...[text shortened]... tified, redeemed by His blood for reconciliation to a perfect and righteous, holy uncreated God.[/b]

You could repeat the same basic milk doctrine a million times for my part. You think you are a law unto yourself and take no advice from Christ and the Apostles.

Originally posted by FMF
KellyJay's OP question was "Without God does anyone avoid sin"?

My questions to you are "[b]With God does anyone avoid sin? Or do your sins not matter because you claim you are "with God"?[/b]

Your question is awkward.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Genesis 4 NIV
6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

Without God does anyone avoid sin?

Through his dad Adam he knew the right way to do sacrifices but he chose not to do it.

Originally posted by divegeester
Your question is awkward.

Judging by the way sonship reacts, he finds many of my questions awkward. He used to acknowledge it, at least until his deterioration in 2015 and 2016. Nowadays, he treats this place as a vanity project and not as a place to participate in debate and discussion.