1. Standard memberKellyJay
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    02 May '17 10:57
    Genesis 4 NIV
    6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

    Without God does anyone avoid sin?
  2. SubscriberFMF
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    02 May '17 11:10
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Without God does anyone avoid sin?
    It shouldn't be so difficult. "Sinners" should stop making excuses.

    I am not much of a "sinner" when it comes to Honour thy father and thy mother, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's servants, animals, or anything else.

    With Thou shalt not steal, I have to admit I download things from the internet which is stealing, but there is no other stealing that I do that I am aware of, As for Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour, well I don't do that but I do fib from time to time in a kind of interpersonal-vaseline way when deemed necessary.

    As for I am the Lord thy God, I fail, obviously, and Thou shalt have no other gods before me does not really apply. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images is not an area in which I transgress. As for Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain, I said "Goodness me" the other day and sonship reprimanded me for it. And finally Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy is not a rule I observe.

    All in all, I don't think I do too badly. Probably my worst "sin" for those who believe in "sin" is that I don't believe in "sin" except in so far as it exists in the minds of people who believe in it.
  3. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    02 May '17 11:32
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Genesis 4 NIV
    6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

    Without God does anyone avoid sin?
    Yes ... we should all do what is right.
    It comes easier to atheists (in general) as they are not constricted by arbitrary rules.
  4. Standard memberRajk999
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    02 May '17 11:391 edit
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Genesis 4 NIV
    6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

    Without God does anyone avoid sin?
    According to Paul and Peter, those who talk, think, read, pray are just babes in the doctrine of Christ and just feed on the milk of the word of God. At time goes by, these babies should develop into mature Christians who are skillful in the meat of the word of God. This means the avoidance of sin, having a full understanding of good and evil and the ways of righteousness.

    Sadly this growth to maturity does not always happen as some Christians rather continue with their sinful lifestyle using Jesus as a crutch and an excuse claiming that .. Jesus saved me and I have the Holy Spirit, I am regenerated.. and other such bogus claims.

    Any Christian who cannot avoid sin for the most part, and who still only talks about Christ is an immature Christian who still lives a carnal and fleshly life.

    For references please see the thread 'Milk and Meat II'.
  5. Standard memberRajk999
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    02 May '17 11:44
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Yes ... we should all do what is right.
    It comes easier to atheists (in general) as they are not constricted by arbitrary rules.
    I could say from experience that this has some truth in it. I have been a small businessman for about 10 years now.and I have had to hire people from all walks of life. I have learned that it is the ones who claim to be born again Christians [therefore they are trustworthy.. is their claim], are the ones that you need to be careful with.
  6. SubscriberSuzianne
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    02 May '17 13:33
    Originally posted by FMF
    It shouldn't be so difficult. "Sinners" should stop making excuses.

    I am not much of a "sinner" when it comes to [b]Honour thy father and thy mother, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's servants, animals, or anything els ...[text shortened]... I don't believe in "sin" except in so far as it exists in the minds of people who believe in it.
    If you think sin is just "disobeying the Ten Commandments", then you're kind of missing the point.

    And you know, I don't EVEN want to know what "in a kind of interpersonal-vaseline way" means.
  7. SubscriberFMF
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    02 May '17 13:38
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    And you know, I don't EVEN want to know what "in a kind of interpersonal-vaseline way" means.
    Little white lies that come up in everyday life when the naked truth is inappropriate.
  8. SubscriberFMF
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    02 May '17 13:391 edit
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    If you think sin is just "disobeying the Ten Commandments", then you're kind of missing the point.
    Well, at least my post is an on-topic starting point, whereas your post is a case of can't-be-bothered-to-discuss-stuff same old same old. 😉
  9. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    02 May '17 13:40
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Yes ... we should all do what is right.
    It comes easier to atheists (in general) as they are not constricted by arbitrary rules.
    Amen brother.
  10. Standard membersonship
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    02 May '17 15:257 edits
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Genesis 4 NIV
    6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

    Without God does anyone avoid sin?
    Have you noticed that sin is personified here as well as in Romans 7 ?

    " ... sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you ..." (Gen. 4:6)

    Sin "desires" as though this power is a living evil thing.

    Compare to Paul's explanation of the fallen yet striving to do good man:

    1.) Sin " seizing the opportunity"

    "But sin, seizing the opportunity through the commandment ..." (Rom. 7:8a)

    2.) Sin "worked out"

    "Sin seizing the opportunity ... worked out in me every coveting of every kind ..." (v.8b)

    3.) Sin "revived".

    " ... when the commandment came, sin revived and I died." (v.8b)

    4.) Again, sin "seizing the opportunity" .

    "For sin, seizing the opportunity through the commandment ..." (v.11a)

    5.) Sin "deceived me".

    "For sin, seizing the opportunity ... deceived me ..." (v.11)

    6.) Sin, after seizing opportunity and deceiving even "killed me".

    " For sin, ..., deceived me and through it [the commandment] killed me." (v.11)

    7.) We might include that sin became death to the sinner.

    " Did then that which is good become death to me? Absolutely not! But sin did ... " (v.13)

    8.) Sin forced the sinner to do what he hates.

    "For what I work out, I do not acknowledge; for what I will, this I do not practice; but what I hate, this I do." (v.15)

    9.) Sin "dwells in me". Sin is an evil force that "dwells" in the fallen man.

    "Now then it is no longer I that work it out but sin that dwells in me." (v.17)

    10.) Again sin is the "nothing good" that dwells in the fallen sinner's corrupted flesh.

    " For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, nothing good dwells ..." (v.18)

    11.) Sin drags man down to work out the evil that he does not will.

    "For I do not do the good which I will; but the evil which I do not will, this I practice." (v.19)

    12.) Again the dwelling sin works out in the fallen man overpowering him.

    " But if what I do not will, this I do, it is no longer I that work it out but sin that dwells in me." (v.20)

    13.) Sin wages war.

    "But I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind ..." (v.23a)

    14.) Sin makes the fallen man a "captive" as it wages war.

    "But I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind and making me a captive ..." (v.23)

    15.) Sin brings into man its own innate "law" that the sinner if forced to obey.

    "But I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind and making me a captive to the law of sin which is in my members." (v.23)

    Sin is the personification of Satan himself. Sin is somehow the attachment of a evil parasitic living thing as a tyrant force driving man, overpowering man, forcing man to act against the better knowledge in his mind.

    its "desire" is for man. And it rules as a tyrant in man. And causes man to feel wretched about himself who does not understand what is going on in him, that is without God's revelation.
    "Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of this death?
    Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord! ..." (v.25a)
  11. Standard memberRajk999
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    02 May '17 15:361 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    Have you noticed that sin is personified here as well as in [b]Romans 7 ?

    " ... sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you ..."

    Sin "desires" as though this power is a living evil thing.

    Compare to Paul's explanation of the fallen yet striving to do good man:

    1.) Sin " seizing the opportunity" ...[text shortened]... ody of this death?
    Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord! ..." (v.25a)
    [/quote][/b]
    The milk truck is here.
  12. SubscriberFMF
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    02 May '17 15:401 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    Sin is the personification of Satan himself. Sin is somehow the attachment of a evil parasitic living thing as a tyrant force driving man, overpowering man, forcing man to act against the better knowledge in his mind.
    Wow. Misanthropy, much? No wonder you actively welcome the 'end times' and the destruction of billions and billions of lives... people you have declared 'not innocent' through having an "evil living parasitic thing" attached to them. People with the same beliefs as you are "forgiven" and "saved", though, right?
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    02 May '17 15:572 edits
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    If you think sin is just "disobeying the Ten Commandments", then you're kind of missing the point.

    And you know, I don't EVEN want to know what "in a kind of interpersonal-vaseline way" means.
    BOOM!! The door slammed open a full 180 degrees, crunching the door handle into the unexpecting plasterboard.

    SWISH!! The first right hook missed FMF's rather large and bulbous wine-soaked nose by inches, startling him into a delayed and slightly humourous pugilistic stance.

    KAP-POW!! The second hook swung in from the left aimed more deliberately at his temple, but a simple chapter 1 forum-self-defence-style block easily prevented the angry blow from landing.

    JAB!! pushing Suzy back with a swift "take that with you" left jab, FMF defused the attack and the door creaked closed on its well worn hinges.
  14. Standard membersonship
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    02 May '17 16:022 edits
    KellyJay, as you can see Romans 7 and Genesis 4:6, though written so long before Romans really are revelations of the same truth. Sin is virtually the personification of Satan the Devil attached to fallen man.

    This evil slave driving "person / force" has its own "law" which no one, but NO ONE can out power. No human being who ever lived can defeat the power of this indwelling law of sin and death.

    No person except the Son of God, the Lord Jesus Christ. Salvation in the next chapter consist of this MORE POWERFUL Person than Sin with its law, coming into the forgiven man to impower him.

    "There is now then no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. (8:1)

    For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me from the law of sin and death." (v.2)


    Now many Christian assume that the "no condemnation" here refers to the justification of redemption. Well, the context is more about the condemnation of the previous chapter 7, the self condemnation of feeling absolutely overpowered no matter what, and enslaved.

    Putting these two verses together brings this relationship out more clearly.

    "Wretched man that I am! WHO ...


    You see? We need a "WHO" rather than a lifeless what.

    "Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of this death.

    Thanks be to God, through our Lord Jesus Christ."
    [the Divine WHO who saves!]

    ... There is now then no condemnation
    [NO feeling of self condemnation and wretchedness] to those who are in Christ Jesus."


    The STRONGER Person, the Lord Jesus Christ, Stronger than the law of sin and death, comes to indwell the believer as "the Spirit of life" to liberate and make free (with her or his cooperation) to the law of indwelling sin, the personification of Satan.

    "There is now then no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.

    FOR ... the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death."


    Salvation then consists of man getting a MORE POWER and STRONGER law of divine life, living and working in him to SUBDUE the law of sin and death in the fallen mankind.

    This is fantastic.
    This is more fantastic then any SciFi I have ever seen or read.
    And it is the truth. It is the revealed truth of the Bible !

    We [Christians] have experienced this. We need to more experience it.
    Paul pioneered in this victory.
  15. Standard membersonship
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    02 May '17 16:15
    Forgive me KellyJay, But I feel to dwell a little more on Romans 8:1.

    It is true that there is no eternal condemantion to those justified in Christ's redemption. But this passage has a context of being freed from self condemnation of bemoaning - "Wretched man that I am. Who will deliver me from the body of this death?"

    This freedom of being in Christ Jesus is more related to the daily liberating from the law of sin and death in the fallen man by means of a more powerful, stronger, more prevailing law that comes with the Person of Jesus Christ.

    "For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death." (v.2)


    One evil law has to be overcome by a stronger law.
    One law of sin and death which no one is able to overcome IS overcome by Christ in His form as "the Spirit of life'.

    Christ, in resurrection, became in a form in which Christ the Person can be imparted into us.

    " ... the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)


    The "Spirit of life" is also that self same "life giving Spirit".

    Let me close this post with some other English renderings of Romans 8:2 This is fair and drives home the point I think.

    Berean Literal Bible
    For the Law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the Law of sin and death.

    New American Standard Bible
    For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

    King James Bible
    For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    because the Spirit's law of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

    International Standard Version
    For the Spirit's law of life in the Messiah Jesus has set me free from the Law of sin and death.

    NET Bible
    For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death.
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