James 2

Originally posted by KellyJay
Not true, you cannot buy your way into the Kingdom of God.
Kelly

It is not "buying" your way into the kingdom. It is abandoning all attachment to the present state of affairs. It is voluntarily placing yourself in a vulnerable position and opening yourself up to the goodness of your fellow man to see you through. When people are willing to do that then they will have realized the kingdom is in their midst.

Originally posted by rwingett
It is not "buying" your way into the kingdom. It is abandoning all attachment to the present state of affairs. It is voluntarily placing yourself in a vulnerable position and opening yourself up to the goodness of your fellow man to see you through. When people are willing to do that then they will have realized the kingdom is in their midst.

Actually the bible does not condemn riches, for many of Gods servants were wealthy, what it does condemn is an improper trust and adherence to the accumulation of such at the expense of trusting in and gaining knowledge of God.

(Proverbs 30:7-9) . . .Two things I have asked of you. Do not withhold them from me before I die. Untruth and the lying word put far away from me. Give me neither poverty nor riches. Let me devour the food prescribed for me, that I may not become satisfied and I actually deny you and say: “Who is Jehovah?” and that I may not come to poverty and I actually steal and assail the name of my God.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Actually the bible does not condemn riches, for many of Gods servants were wealthy, what it does condemn is an improper trust and adherence to the accumulation of such at the expense of trusting in and gaining knowledge of God.

(Proverbs 30:7-9) . . .Two things I have asked of you. Do not withhold them from me before I die. Untruth and the lying w ...[text shortened]... Jehovah?” and that I may not come to poverty and I actually steal and assail the name of my God.

As you know, robbie, I do not accept the bible as being an authentic transcript of Jesus' words. So I try not to rely on individual verses to bolster my case. But there are some overarching themes which can be traced back to Jesus with a greater degree of confidence. Social justice is paramount amongst them. Others, like the Pauline mythology that grew up around Jesus, are more likely to be later inventions.

Originally posted by duecer
Jesus told the rich man to sell all his possesions and give them to the poor. It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God

You left out the most important part of what Jesus said in that
conversation.
Kelly

Originally posted by rwingett
It is not "buying" your way into the kingdom. It is abandoning all attachment to the present state of affairs. It is voluntarily placing yourself in a vulnerable position and opening yourself up to the goodness of your fellow man to see you through. When people are willing to do that then they will have realized the kingdom is in their midst.

What kingdom are you trying to get into again, God's? You have to
be invited into that one, God invites and you cannot force God into
allowing you into it, you cannot earn it either.
Kelly

Originally posted by rwingett
As you know, robbie, I do not accept the bible as being an authentic transcript of Jesus' words. So I try not to rely on individual verses to bolster my case. But there are some overarching themes which can be traced back to Jesus with a greater degree of confidence. Social justice is paramount amongst them. Others, like the Pauline mythology that grew up around Jesus, are more likely to be later inventions.

yes my friend, but the words that i quoted were taken from the Hebrew portion of scripture, which the Jews preserved with almost fanatic attention to detail, many of which are paraphrased or directly quoted in the Christian Greek scriptures.

I myself have found not one valid reason why i should discount any of the testimony of the biblical account of Christ words, nor the Bible as a whole.

of the words that have been preserved, in fact, quite the opposite is true, for when we examine the finer details, it becomes quite evident that we are referring to actual occurrences and not the words of a merely fictitious character or imagined event. if you are truly interested in this subject, the best book that I have ever read on the subject is, 'the life and times of the Messiah, by Alfred Edersheim, his other works include,

History of the Jewish Nation after the Destruction of Jerusalem by Titus (Edinburgh, 1856)
The Temple and Its Ministry and Services at the Time of Jesus Christ (London, 1874)
Bible History (7 vols., 1876-87)
Sketches of Jewish Social Life in the Days of Christ (1876)
Prophecy and History in Relation to the Messiah (Warburton Lectures for 1880-1884, 1885)

what makes his works so special is that he was a scholarly Jew who was a convert to Christianity, thus his knowledge of Jewish customs especially in relation to the study of the Christian Greek scriptures are invaluable, for they cannot be fully appreciated without recourse to this cultural background, but more than that, they show that by considering simple details we can establish their credentials.

that Christ was a-political is easily established from scripture, but yes you are correct, abhorrence of injustice in any form was reflected in Christ work, the throwing of the money changers from the temple, is a salient example.

Originally posted by KellyJay
What kingdom are you trying to get into again, God's? You have to
be invited into that one, God invites and you cannot force God into
allowing you into it, you cannot earn it either.
Kelly

My conception of the kingdom is very different from yours. I interpret the kingdom as being a potentiality in this world. It lies dormant within our midst, waiting to be activated. When mankind renounce greed, and renounce injustice, then they will have actualized that kingdom amongst themselves and the spirit of god* will enter into that kingdom and we will receive his blessing. With regard to robbie's point, this is an apolitical program. It requires the abandonment of politics altogether.

*It goes without saying that my conception of 'god' is very different from yours as well, but that is another discussion.

Originally posted by rwingett
My conception of the kingdom is very different from yours. I interpret the kingdom as being a potentiality in this world. It lies dormant within our midst, waiting to be activated. When mankind renounce greed, and renounce injustice, then they will have actualized that kingdom amongst themselves and the spirit of god* will enter into that kingdom and we wil ...[text shortened]... my conception of 'god' is very different from yours as well, but that is another discussion.

My dear friend, you must really forgive me, for it is really late and i am so tired that i need to sleep and i am hardly conscious whether i am babbling or not. it is the interpretation of the word 'midst', that conditions our understanding. born again Christians would insist that it is in our heart, even you yourself are saying that it is an inner state of mind, the passage needs examination, for Christ was talking to his enemies, the Pharisees, and the kingdom of god would hardly be in their midst, however, there are some beautiful Bible verses which echo and reflect your own thoughts and it is a very noble endeavour my friend, a world free of corruption and greed and exploitation.

i once discussed these very things at length with a pretty girl once who was selling the socialist worker newspaper outside an underground (low level)station in Glasgow. what was interesting was that we both agreed that there needed to be quite fundamental changes to the social structure in which we live, all that differed was the medium that would be utilised to achieve it, now i am babbling, will speak tomorrow - kind regards Robbie.

Originally posted by KellyJay
You left out the most important part of what Jesus said in that
conversation.
Kelly

actually I don't think I did, that is a matter of opinion.

So are you really arguing for the rich guy? seems like a forgone conclusion to me.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
My dear friend, you must really forgive me, for it is really late and i am so tired that i need to sleep and i am hardly conscious whether i am babbling or not. it is the interpretation of the word 'midst', that conditions our understanding. born again Christians would insist that it is in our heart, even you yourself are saying that it is an inner ...[text shortened]... would be utilised to achieve it, now i am babbling, will speak tomorrow - kind regards Robbie.

As the Gospel of Thomas says, the kingdom of god is within you and outside of you. It has two parts, one inner and one outer. One is the inner transformation of the individual whereby he renounces all the worldly defenses of position, rank and wealth. Whereby he renounces anything to do with oppression, exploitation and greed. Whereby he enters into the world defenseless and at the complete mercy of those around him. That inner transformation is a necessary precursor for salvation, which is the outward manifestation of that transformation among like minded individuals in a social setting. The path toward salvation is comprised of many individual transformations, but salvation itself (the attainment of the kingdom) is necessarily social in character. The kingdom is a socially activated phenomenon within this world.

We are not waiting for god* to bring the kingdom to us. Rather, god is waiting for us to build that kingdom ourselves and demonstrate that we are worthy of his grace.

*Again, I wish to stress that what I mean by 'god' is completely different from a traditional theistic conception.

Originally posted by duecer
actually I don't think I did, that is a matter of opinion.

So are you really arguing for the rich guy? seems like a forgone conclusion to me.

I'll post the scripture in context when I have a little more time.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'll post the scripture in context when I have a little more time.
Kelly

don't bother it speaks for itself just fine:

16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."

18"Which ones?" the man inquired.

Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,'[d] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'[e]"

20"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"

21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"

26Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

27Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?"

28Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother[f] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.

Originally posted by duecer
don't bother it speaks for itself just fine:

16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."

18"Which ones?" the man inquired.

Jesus replied, " 'Do not ...[text shortened]... y who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.

ok gentlemen what is your evaluation of this passage?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
ok gentlemen what is your evaluation of this passage?

That Jesus was a socialist. That people were to "tune in and drop out". Tune in to his word and drop out from the everyday world around them. They were to form their own Utopian communities with as little contact with the 'regular' world as possible. These would form the basis for the coming kingdom.

If we accept all this, then the Hutterite communities of the western US and Canada are as close as it comes to following the words of Jesus.

Originally posted by duecer
don't bother it speaks for itself just fine:

16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."

18"Which ones?" the man inquired.

Jesus replied, " 'Do not ...[text shortened]... y who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.

"...Then come, follow me."


Kelly