03 Aug 09
1 edit
Originally posted by rwingetti think that the sentiments that you express my friend are not far from the truth, but not wholly accurate, for Christ, his message and his followers were not to be aloof or distant from humanity, but embroiled in it. yes they were to be no part of the world, just as Christ was no part of the world, but we must agree that Christ was deeply involved in the lives of those he met, therefore, this being no part of the world must have some other meaning, other than making some type of commune. it is perhaps better explained in Christ's own words, as preserved in scripture ( i know you have some issue with this, but for the sake of convenience)
That Jesus was a socialist. That people were to "tune in and drop out". Tune in to his word and drop out from the everyday world around them. They were to form their own Utopian communities with as little contact with the 'regular' world as possible. These would form the basis for the coming kingdom.
If we accept all this, then the Hutterite communities of the western US and Canada are as close as it comes to following the words of Jesus.
(Matthew 24:40-42) . . .Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned; two women will be grinding at the hand mill: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned. Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.
thus it seems to my friend that Christ true followers would be engaged in everyday affairs, like trying to make a living, along with the rest of humankind.
03 Aug 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThey were to serve as an example to the rest of the world. So there was to be interaction in that regard. But they were not to entangle themselves in the monetary system, or the government system of the outside world if it could be avoided. Their communities were to be as self-sufficient as possible. Of course this means they had to make a living. Mana wasn't going to drop from the sky to sustain them. They had to engage in buying and selling with the outside world where necessary, but within their own communities they were to practice an egalitarian community of goods. When that mode of life became the norm, rather than the exception, then the kingdom would have been realized.
i think that the sentiments that you express my friend are not far from the truth, but not wholly accurate, for Christ, his message and his followers were not to be aloof or distant from humanity, but embroiled in it. yes they were to be no part of the world, just as Christ was no part of the world, but we must agree that Christ was deeply involved ...[text shortened]... be engaged in everyday affairs, like trying to make a living, along with the rest of humankind.
03 Aug 09
Originally posted by KellyJay22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
"...Then come, follow me."
Kelly
23Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
03 Aug 09
2 edits
Originally posted by duecerWhat ever stands between you and following Jesus is an issue, if there
22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
23Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
is anything between you and Christ that is a problem. It can be wealth,
power, people; whatever, the point is that guy cared more about what
he had than following Christ. You again can give your stuff away but if
you are not following Jesus Christ, it doesn't matter. Jesus is Lord, that
is the one thing you should know about Him, not that Jesus is a
socialist.
Kelly
03 Aug 09
Originally posted by KellyJayI think you're just hung up on the word 'socialist' because of its Marxist connotations, or whatever. What if we substituted another word, like 'communitarian', or something?
What ever stands between you and following Jesus is an issue, if there
is anything between you and Christ that is a problem. It can be wealth,
power, people; whatever, the point is that guy cared more about what
he had than following Christ. You again can give your stuff away but if
you are not following Jesus Christ, it doesn't matter. Jesus is Lord, that
is the one thing you should know about Him, not that Jesus is a
socialist.
Kelly
03 Aug 09
Originally posted by KellyJayMark 8:31 Jesus then began to teach his disciples. He taught them that the Son of Man must suffer many things. He taught them that the elders would not accept him. The chief priests and the teachers of the law would not accept him either. He must be killed and after three days rise again. 32 He spoke clearly about this.
What ever stands between you and following Jesus is an issue, if there
is anything between you and Christ that is a problem. It can be wealth,
power, people; whatever, the point is that guy cared more about what
he had than following Christ. You again can give your stuff away but if
you are not following Jesus Christ, it doesn't matter. Jesus is Lord, that
is the one thing you should know about Him, not that Jesus is a
socialist.
Kelly
Peter took Jesus to one side and began to scold him.
33 Jesus turned and looked at his disciples. He scolded Peter. "Get behind me, Satan!" he said. "You are not thinking about the things of God. Instead, you are thinking about human things."
34 Jesus called the crowd to him along with his disciples. He said, "If anyone wants to come after me, he must say no to himself. He must pick up his cross and follow me. 35 If he wants to save his life, he will lose it. But if he loses his life for me and for the good news, he will save it. 36 What good is it if someone gains the whole world but loses his soul? 37 Or what can anyone trade for his soul?
03 Aug 09
Originally posted by rwingettthey were not to entangle themselves in the monetary system
They were to serve as an example to the rest of the world. So there was to be interaction in that regard. But they were not to entangle themselves in the monetary system, or the government system of the outside world if it could be avoided. Their communities were to be as self-sufficient as possible. Of course this means they had to make a living. Mana wasn ...[text shortened]... of life became the norm, rather than the exception, then the kingdom would have been realized.
this is interesting, for what is the basis for this statement, for surely if they were to make a living, this could not be avoided. for example Paul, although highly educated, was a tent maker, for it provided sustenance and covering, with a little left over to distribute to someone in need!
03 Aug 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI think there is a vast difference between earning a living and oppressing the poor, as a matter of fact, you can even get rich without exploiting others. The real trouble comes when you love money more than you love God, or your fellow human beings.
they were not to entangle themselves in the monetary system
this is interesting, for what is the basis for this statement, for surely if they were to make a living, this could not be avoided. for example Paul, although highly educated, was a tent maker, for it provided sustenance and covering, with a little left over to distribute to someone in need!
03 Aug 09
1 edit
Originally posted by dueceryes and this was the problem with the young man, he loved his riches more than God. Paul i think sets the balance for Christians.
I think there is a vast difference between earning a living and oppressing the poor, as a matter of fact, you can even get rich without exploiting others. The real trouble comes when you love money more than you love God, or your fellow human beings.
(1 Timothy 6:7-11) . . .For we have brought nothing into the world, and neither can we carry anything out. So, having sustenance and covering, we shall be content with these things. However, those who are determined to be rich fall into temptation and a snare and many senseless and hurtful desires, which plunge men into destruction and ruin. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of injurious things, and by reaching out for this love some have been led astray from the faith and have stabbed themselves all over with many pains. However, you, O man of God, flee from these things.. . .
please note that it is not money itself that is injurious, but the love of it.
03 Aug 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI think we are more or less on the same page.
yes and this was the problem with the young man, he loved his riches more than God. Paul i think sets the balance for Christians.
(1 Timothy 6:7-11) . . .For we have brought nothing into the world, and neither can we carry anything out. So, [b]having sustenance and covering, we shall be content with these things. However, those who are deter ...[text shortened]... gs.. . .
please note that it is not money itself that is inherently evil, but the love of it.[/b]
03 Aug 09
Originally posted by duecercool, as the Americanos say! I am interested to note what you thought the theme of the original quotation from James may have meant, for it seems to me, to be an admonishment to avoid all sorts of favouritism, simony and judging others by their status. This could also translate into inverse snobbery, that we think that if someone is wealthy, that they may have no hope of learning the way of the Christ, but who are we to say where the seed will fall or not?
I think we are more or less on the same page.
03 Aug 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI think the modern application is that we should not make "filters" that would make others feel excluded or unwelcome in God's house. We should make no preference one over the other. seems clear to me.
cool, as the Americanos say! I am interested to note what you thought the theme of the original quotation from James may have meant, for it seems to me, to be an admonishment to avoid all sorts of favouritism, simony and judging others by their status. This could also translate into inverse snobbery, that we think that if someone is wealthy, that th ...[text shortened]... o hope of learning the way of the Christ, but who are we to say where the seed will fall or not?
03 Aug 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobie8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself,"[a] you are doing right. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder."[c] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.
mmm, what about keeping the congregation clean from unwholesome influences, a shepherd should care for and know the appearance of the flock! for a little leaven ferments the whole lump!
12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!
Mercy triumphs over judgement, heaven be praised!
03 Aug 09
2 edits
Originally posted by dueceryes but Paul clearly speaks of admonishing a man a second and third time and if he is unrepentant, then he should be removed.
8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself,"[a] you are doing right. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not m ciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!
Mercy triumphs over judgement, heaven be praised!
(1 Corinthians 5:6-13) . . .your cause for boasting is not fine. Do you not know that a little leaven ferments the whole lump? Clear away the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, according as you are free from ferment. For, indeed, Christ our passover has been sacrificed. Consequently let us keep the festival, not with old leaven, neither with leaven of badness and wickedness, but with unfermented cakes of sincerity and truth. In my letter I wrote you to quit mixing in company with fornicators, not meaning entirely with the fornicators of this world or the greedy persons and extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world. But now I am writing you to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.”
how are we to understand this?