Jesus Camp

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
I'd be very concerned if my local scout troop added religion and politics to normal scouting activities. Wouldn't you?

Not if I've sanctioned it (for my kids, that is).

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
Did you find anything other than hymns?

Yes - prayer (I should've said "singing hymns and praying" ).

Be specific -- which items on the list of activities bothers you?

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Yes - prayer (I should've said "singing hymns and praying" ).

Be specific -- which items on the list of activities bothers you?

In my case, the combination of politics, religion, and young children. That is enough to bother me. Remove politics from the mix and it might just be another harmless Bible camp...

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Not if I've sanctioned it (for my kids, that is).

OK, your scoutmaster asks your kids to repent their sins, cradle plastic fetuses and (let's presume you are a USA citizen) ask God to guide President Bush in nominating anti-abortion judges. Would you sanction that?

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Isn't that true of any group situation involving kids? Couldn't you, for instance, say the same about the Boy Scouts or the Soccer Team? Are you suggesting we do away with these as well?

I think age and content are very important factors.
I have not seen the film nor do I know what age the children in question are. If they were over 15 then they would me much more dangerous than say under 15s.
I think that with both boy scouts and soccer teams as well as church youth groups, the parents of the children should be kept aware of the content of the values etc being imparted. In every case, where there children are encouraged to accept without question then there is a danger of the leaders / organizers taking advantage of the situation to the detriment of society.
My own personal gripe with Christian youth activities is that it is extremely common for adult Christians to tell outright lies (that they themselves dont believe) to try and win converts amongst children.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
In my case, the combination of politics, religion, and young children. That is enough to bother me. Remove politics from the mix and it might just be another harmless Bible camp...

What's the rationale behind removing politics from the mix? Are you saying that young kids should not have any political exposure at all?

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
OK, your scoutmaster asks your kids to repent their sins, cradle plastic fetuses and (let's presume you are a USA citizen) ask God to guide President Bush in nominating anti-abortion judges. Would you sanction that?

Assuming for the moment that those are the only "non scouting" things he does -- yes I would.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
What's the rationale behind removing politics from the mix?

To avoid the possibility of political indoctrination.

Did you read my post about veldskool? I should emphasise that Christianity was promoted there as the way to go, and that communists were to be feared not only for the security threat they posed but also because they were "godless", a charge evoking sense of nameless doom.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I think age and content are very important factors.
I have not seen the film nor do I know what age the children in question are. If they were over 15 then they would me much more dangerous than say under 15s.
I think that with both boy scouts and soccer teams as well as church youth groups, the parents of the children should be kept aware of the conten ...[text shortened]... tell outright lies (that they themselves dont believe) to try and win converts amongst children.

If they were over 15 then they would me much more dangerous than say under 15s.

I would've thought you'd see it the other way around.

I think that with both boy scouts and soccer teams as well as church youth groups, the parents of the children should be kept aware of the content of the values etc being imparted. In every case, where there children are encouraged to accept without question then there is a danger of the leaders / organizers taking advantage of the situation to the detriment of society.

Agreed. But if the parents are in agreement with or not opposed to the values being imparted, then shouldn't it be their decision provided those values do not promote breaking the law?

My own personal gripe with Christian youth activities is that it is extremely common for adult Christians to tell outright lies (that they themselves dont believe) to try and win converts amongst children.

Right -- and non-Christian youth groups don't.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
To avoid the possibility of political indoctrination.

Did you read my post about veldskool? I should emphasise that Christianity was promoted there as the way to go, and that communists were to be feared not only for the security threat they posed but also because they were "godless", a charge evoking sense of nameless doom.

I read your post about veldskool. But there is simply no way to "avoid the possibility of political indoctrination". If my Dad picks up the morning paper and curses President Bush and the Republicans, he's already "indoctrinating" me (even if I'm only six years old). If my Dad or Uncle is an enthusiastic Democrat or Republican, that's going to have as big an influence (if not bigger) than any camps or rallies I attend. How do you suggest we police such domestic indoctrination?

EDIT: The question should not be whether we can "avoid" indoctrination (we can't -- unless we propose children are brought up in sterile, controlled environments -- which is another form of indoctrination, of course) -- but whether we can ensure that whatever they're indoctrinated with is consistent with a democratic set-up that values human rights.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
I read your post about veldskool. But there is simply no way to "avoid the possibility of political indoctrination".

People make their own choices. Yes, one's parents' politics doubtless influence one's political thinking one way or another (children are just as likely to rebel against their parents' views as embrace them). In any case, being told what to think and what to pray removes the element of choice. It also invites authorities to set up targets--"these people are your enemies" (commies, fags, towelheads, abortionists). I'm in favour of learning environments that promote choice rather than restrict it--where Dad's politics can be compared with other views, so children can develop their own thinking.

To continue with the interesting story of the scout troop:
you endorse the scoutmaster's policies and encourage your kids to carry on scouting. They come back and say that half the other kids have since dropped out because it's "too weird" at the troop now. Then some concerned parents ring you up to say that they are going to petition the scout organisation to have this scoutmaster removed. What's your response?

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
People make their own choices. Yes, one's parents' politics doubtless influence one's political thinking one way or another (children are just as likely to rebel against their parents' views as embrace them). In any case, being told what to think and what to pray removes the element of choice. It also invites authorities to set up targets--"these peopl tion the scout organisation to have this scoutmaster removed. What's your response?

We always tell our kids what to think ("Why can't I just take Bobby's train?" "You can't -- that's wrong." "But why?" "Would you like it if Bobby or someone else did it to you?" "But I'm the strongest in class, no one can take it away from me" "*exasperated* Well you can't because it's wrong and that's that. When you're older you'll understand why" ) and what to choose -- anyone who claims otherwise has either never raised a child or is just plain lying. The idea of "learning environments" is fine with older kids, but you cannot discuss virtue ethics or deontological ethics with an eight-year old.

Do you think a child who's told by his/her mother to recycle is given a "choice" in the household? Or that parents who encourage their kids to eat healthy provide them a nutrition chart that explains what the various food groups do?

Sometimes you just have to tell kids what they need to know without explaining it because it's beyond them at the moment.


Re: the scoutmaster

Where's this going? Are you trying to portray a religious scoutmaster as some kind of pedophile or something?

As an aside, there are Christian scouting organisations -- I presume we're talking about one of them.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
The idea of "learning environments" is fine with older kids, but you cannot discuss virtue ethics or deontological ethics with an eight-year old.

Do you think a child who's told by his/her mother to recycle is given a "choice" in the household? Or that parents who encourage their kids to eat healthy provide them a nutrition chart that explains what there are Christian scouting organisations -- I presume we're talking about one of them.

Yes, which is why it's inappropriate for eight-year-olds to be placed in a situation where they are encouraged to see themselves as "soldiers of the Lord" fighting various ideological "enemies". An indoctrination camp is an unsuitable learning environment for children.

Recycling trash and eating healthily are routine affairs. "Don't pollute your body. Don't sh1t where you eat". And an explanation of why they are good habits does work better than a flat command. A four-year-old is capable of grasping why littering is ugly.

Our hypothetical scout troop is not a specifically Christian organisation but a scout troop pure and simple (bushcraft, knots), whose scoutmaster decides to use it as a platform for his views. The Scout code does reference God but broadly enough for any theist to feel comfortable (in theory):
REVERENT. A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.
http://www.prismatic.com/troop103/scoutlaw.htm

It's the easiest thing in the world to have people obeying without thinking as long as you put them in front of any "authority".

Milgram's experiment demonstrate all that after Eichmann,s trial, because what the people working for the nazys were saying was all the time the same:

- We were just doing what we were told to.

Has absolutely nothing to do with any religious group or race.

It's just one of the main weakness of human being.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Yes, which is why it's inappropriate for eight-year-olds to be placed in a situation where they are encouraged to see themselves as "soldiers of the Lord" fighting various ideological "enemies". An indoctrination camp is an unsuitable learning environment for children.

Our hypothetical scout troop is not a specifically Christian organisation but a ...[text shortened]... duties. He respects the beliefs of others.
http://www.prismatic.com/troop103/scoutlaw.htm

Yes, which is why it's inappropriate for eight-year-olds to be placed in a situation where they are encouraged to see themselves as "soldiers of the Lord" fighting various ideological "enemies". An indoctrination camp is an unsuitable learning environment for children.

No more than the home is. I don't see anything fundamentally "inappropriate" in 8-year olds being encouraged to see themselves as "soldiers of the Lord" when it's clear that their "weapons" are not violent or anti-democratic (and being "soldiers" does not automatically mean there is an "enemy" -- the primary role of the army is defence, after all). If, as "soldiers of the Lord" they were to "fight" against poverty, or pollution, or social injustice by non-violent means (e.g. awareness campaigns, handing out leaflets, donating some of their savings to a charity etc.) then would you see a problem with it?

Our hypothetical scout troop is not a specifically Christian organisation but a scout troop pure and simple (bushcraft, knots), whose scoutmaster decides to use it as a platform for his views.

If that is the case, then I agree it would be inappropriate. But even scouting extols certain values and virtues over others (e.g. the value of being outdoors and closer to nature, the value of social work etc.)

EDIT: Recycling trash and eating healthily are routine affairs.

So is prayer in a religious household.

And an explanation of why they are good habits does work better than a flat command.

In the hypothetical conversation I cited, how do you think the mother could've explained why stealing is wrong better?

EDIT2: I am reminded of the position of the English philosopher G.E. Moore who said that "goodness" cannot be analyzed in terms of other properties. Essentially, it's impossible to explain completely why stealing is wrong -- you'll end up with some fundamental set of values that just has to be accepted.