Spirituality
15 Oct 06
16 Oct 06
Originally posted by lucifershammerWhat you should be concerned about, I think, in these camps is the conflation of politics and religion. It is very easy to see that a child could leave these camps thinking that in order to be a good christan one must also be a good republican.
I read your post about veldskool. But there is simply no way to "avoid the possibility of political indoctrination". If my Dad picks up the morning paper and curses President Bush and the Republicans, he's already "indoctrinating" me (even if I'm only six years old). If my Dad or Uncle is an enthusiastic Democrat or Republican, that's going to ...[text shortened]... e indoctrinated with is consistent with a democratic set-up that values human rights.
16 Oct 06
Originally posted by TheSkipperHave you watched it? Are you--an extreme liberal--shaking in your boots?
What you should be concerned about, I think, in these camps is the conflation of politics and religion. It is very easy to see that a child could leave these camps thinking that in order to be a good christan one must also be a good republican.
16 Oct 06
Originally posted by Bosse de NageAs you've already pointed out, children are very critical of their parents' efforts to indoctrinate them!
I'm using indoctrination in the sense of "teaching someone to accept doctrines uncritically". As you've already pointed out, children are very critical of their parents' efforts to indoctrinate them! At a later stage, it seems, some children are encouraged to think en masse, uncritically. Surely you see the difference.
Or, what makes one type of indoctrination healthy and another not?
Which doesn't mean it doesn't happen nevertheless. In the case of the obstinate child I cited, he had to ultimately accept his mother's view uncritically.
At a later stage, it seems, some children are encouraged to think en masse, uncritically. Surely you see the difference.
If they are critical of their parents' efforts, why do you think they would be any less critical of a stranger's efforts?
Or, what makes one type of indoctrination healthy and another not?
Precisely the matter of the indoctrination. Is the content one of violence or tolerance? Is it one of charity or hatred?
16 Oct 06
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Originally posted by lucifershammerThe child was forced to accept something against his will. Perhaps he never accepts it and grows up to be a thief, in which case the indoctrination will have failed.
As you've already pointed out, children are very critical of their parents' efforts to indoctrinate them!
Which doesn't mean it doesn't happen nevertheless. In the case of the obstinate child I cited, he had to ultimately accept his mother's view uncritically.
At a later stage, it seems, some children are encouraged to think en masse, octrination. Is the content one of violence or tolerance? Is it one of charity or hatred?
A good question in the second place--why does that happen? Perhaps those children are weak and stupid. Perhaps their family background predisposes them to be so. Or perhaps they are merely afraid of the consequences of disobedience--perhaps the "tough love" they experienced in their childhood from Dad has made them reluctant to question authority. You tell me.
The last point is important, as it is a reminder to stick to the facts. I'd appreciate your assessment of the facts in this case, the content of the indoctrination, once you've watched the video.
16 Oct 06
Originally posted by Bosse de NageSimply being considered an extremist is not a rational reason to change one's beliefs -- I have to agree with him on this.
He triumphantly considered the discussion closed with the citation of that particular verse. I said, "Don't you think that's a rather extreme view?" He responded, "If believing what the Bible says is extreme, then I'm happy to be an extremist!"
I would take a different track; focus on the historical development of the Bible and help him to see what the early Christian community (whose members and for whom the NT books were written) made of these verses.
16 Oct 06
Originally posted by TheSkipperThat is the thing about this that does worry me. I have absolutely no problems with the whole singing, praying in tongues, "Lord's Army" bit (provided it's made clear what the "weaponry" of being in the Lord's Army is and is not) -- but the bowing to a cut-out of GWB does worry me a bit.
What you should be concerned about, I think, in these camps is the conflation of politics and religion. It is very easy to see that a child could leave these camps thinking that in order to be a good christan one must also be a good republican.
16 Oct 06
Originally posted by lucifershammerHooray! It's only in conjunction with the political angle that the mumbo-jumbo takes on a sinister light.
That is the thing about this that does worry me. I have absolutely no problems with the whole singing, praying in tongues, "Lord's Army" bit (provided it's made clear what the "weaponry" of being in the Lord's Army is and is not) -- but the bowing to a cut-out of GWB does worry me a bit.
16 Oct 06
Originally posted by Bosse de NageLet's be clear -- I have no problems with them praying that God may guide GWB (or whoever the current President is) to nominate anti-abortion judges. It's the personal glorification of Bush that worries me.
Hooray! It's only in conjunction with the political angle that the mumbo-jumbo takes on a sinister light.
16 Oct 06
Originally posted by lucifershammerYes, I was raised protestant and it was made very clear to me that I was part of the "Lord's Army"...we even sang a song about it as I recall. Thinking back on it the whole thing makes me uncomfortable, knowing what I now do about the unfortunate marriage of religion and violence in some cultures. Framing our religion in militaristic terms seems like an unnecessary metaphor that could easily be avoided without effecting religion one way or the other.
That is the thing about this that does worry me. I have absolutely no problems with the whole singing, praying in tongues, "Lord's Army" bit (provided it's made clear what the "weaponry" of being in the Lord's Army is and is not) -- but the bowing to a cut-out of GWB does worry me a bit.
Having said that I must admit that at no point was I confused about what the "Lord's Army" meant. I was never under the impression that I should or needed to do violence on anyone in order to continue to be a part of the so called army. I just know that the army metaphor was completely unnecessary for me to feel included and in light of the worlds current problems it might be wise to avoid it in the future.
I have not seen the movie yet, although I did listen to a long interview with the movies creators on NPR last week and it sounds like the directors of this camp are far more "intense" than my Sunday school teacher was. The effect of herd behavior on children cannot be exaggerated and having been to somewhat similar Jesus camps in my youth I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that the desire to please the directors of the camp is exceedingly strong. Looking back on it now I can see how easy it would have been for me to do something I would not ordinarily do in an effort to please the directors and/or distinguish myself from my fellow "soldiers". I'm no expert but it seem like the potential for abuse of such hero worship is strong and probably dangerous.
16 Oct 06
For those of you christians who claim you'll watch the movie, but never will, you can at least go to their site* and watch the trailer and some clips:
http://jesuscampthemovie.com/
*If you have a PC, that is. The site doesn't appear to work when accessed from a Mac. Don't ask me why, but I've tried both.
16 Oct 06
Originally posted by rwingettThanks for the link.
For those of you christians who claim you'll watch the movie, but never will, you can at least go to their site* and watch the trailer and some clips:
http://jesuscampthemovie.com/
*If you have a PC, that is. The site doesn't appear to work when accessed from a Mac. Don't ask me why, but I've tried both.
The second excerpt from the film talks of "Christian heavy metal".
Something oxymoronic about that...
16 Oct 06
Originally posted by lucifershammerSavvy proselytizers have long realized that singing boring, old, traditional hymns doesn't cut it with the kids these days. So they've branched out into genres that are more youth friendly. Thus we are left with "christian heavy metal" and "christian rap", etc.
Thanks for the link.
The second excerpt from the film talks of "Christian heavy metal".
Something oxymoronic about that...
16 Oct 06
Originally posted by TheSkipperWhy don't we ask telerion? He is currently a standing member of the Lord's Army.
Yes, I was raised protestant and it was made very clear to me that I was part of the "Lord's Army"...we even sang a song about it as I recall. Thinking back on it the whole thing makes me uncomfortable, knowing what I now do about the unfortunate marriage of religion and violence in some cultures. Framing our religion in militaristic terms seems like an ...[text shortened]... m like the potential for abuse of such hero worship is strong and probably dangerous.
