Jesus' Death vs Martyrdom

Originally posted by @divegeester
And yet a few days ago you were claiming to be an “authority on Christianity”.

There have been Christian hymns written about this symbolism, books written, thousands of sermons, and it’s easily searchable on the internet.

False. I never claimed that, nor did I claim to be an authority on any subject.

Would love to see the post you’re referencing because you’re either honestly mistaken or deliberately lying.

Given my experiences with your conduct in this forum and your candidacy to replace Ghost as Head Troll, I suspect it’s the latter. In fact, I’d put the odds at 40 percent honestly mistaken, 60 percent deliberately lying.

Originally posted by @divegeester
Again, as an “authority on Christianity” I thought you would be aware that it was not the death, nor the resurrection, nor the ascension which transformed the disciples from followers into the dynamic apostles they became, it was the events at Pentecost as described in the book of Acts.

I think you’re mistaken and will post the relevant passage.

And, once again, I never claimed to be an authority on Christianity or any subject.

I was thinking of Mark 16 when I said the disciples were transformed from states of fear to boldness by seeing the Resurrected Christ, but in re-reading that chapter, the timing is not as clear as I thought.

But here are the relevant passages:

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.“

(Mark 16:19-20)

Originally posted by @romans1009
False. I never claimed that, nor did I claim to be an authority on any subject.

I may be mistaken of course, if it was not you then it was Jacob Verville and if that is the case then I apologise.

Originally posted by @romans1009
I was thinking of Mark 16 when I said the disciples were transformed from states of fear to boldness by seeing the Resurrected Christ, but in re-reading that chapter, the timing is not as clear as I thought.

But here are the relevant passages:

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of ...[text shortened]... Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.“

(Mark 16:19-20)

Fair enough that does indicate a drive form the spirit, but I maintain that apostolic transformation came with the spirit at Pentecost when the “received power” to do so.

Originally posted by @divegeester
I may be mistaken of course, if it was not you then it was Jacob Verville and if that is the case then I apologise.

<<I’d say I’m learned about some subjects but an authority? No, I wouldn’t say that.>>

Page 3 of the “works-based and faith-based salvation” thread.

Originally posted by @divegeester
Fair enough that does indicate a drive form the spirit, but I maintain that apostolic transformation came with the spirit at Pentecost when the “received power” to do so.

The Holy Spirit came upon the disciples earlier in Acts than I thought as Peter’s statement to the Pharisees, “We ought to obey rather than men,” was after the disciples had received the Holy Spirit, and not before, as I previously thought.

Originally posted by @divegeester
Are you seriously comparing the account of the execution of Jesus with the assassinations of Abraham Lincoln, John F. Kennedy, and Martin Luther King?

It was a typo.
it should have read -

Shall [we] compare His execution to be exactly as the death of Mahatma Ghandi, Abraham Lincoln, John F. Kennedy, or Martin Luther King?

My answer to the rhetorical question is that Christ's execution represented something more unique.

And "Christian Martyr [witness]" would probably not apply to many people who have been assassinated for some cause.

Nor would an Islamic "martyr's brigade" of suicide be quite the usual sense of Christian martyr.

I may be mistaken, but I think the word came into the English language via church history.

Originally posted by @romans1009
False. I never claimed that, nor did I claim to be an authority on any subject.

Would love to see the post you’re referencing because you’re either honestly mistaken or deliberately lying.

Given my experiences with your conduct in this forum and your candidacy to replace Ghost as Head Troll, I suspect it’s the latter. In fact, I’d put the odds at 40 percent honestly mistaken, 60 percent deliberately lying.

On this Forum, perhaps on many of this nature, there can be a tendency to too eagerly jump to conclusions.

I know I have done it.
I know better that it has often been done to me.

John 12:24 says that Christ's death is as one unique grain falling to the ground to die and multiplying into many grains - "much fruit".

The Son of God and the Son of Man, Jesus Christ, was unique among all human beings. His death was the only way in which others like Him could be produced by God.

What was concealed within Him could only be released by Him dying. The divine life within was released from the shell of His humanity to produce more sons of God.

He was driven to accomplish this multiplication which was to come from His redemptive death, His falling into the ground to die.

But that death needs to include something very awful. That is for God to make Him sin on our behalf. He was made sin that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. I believe that that was the bitter cup which He prayed about.

This involved being judged by God as if He were the very source and embodiment of the Satanic poison of sin. This supernatural scheme surpassed any regular human execution for a good cause.

For God to make Him sin must have been Christ as sin in reality, though He knew no sin.

"Him who did not know sin He made sin on our behalf that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." ( 2 Cor. 5:21)

It is also a reality that He carried up our sins in His body unto the tree.

"Who Himself bore up our sins in His body on the tree, in order that we, having died to sins, might live to righteousness; by whose bruise you were healed." (1 Pet. 2:24)

Watchman Nee put it well in "The Gospel of God." [my bolding]

https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n

unless the grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it abides alone. A man like the Lord Jesus was just one grain before God. Only after He has died is there many grains. Salvation begins with the cross. Although we must have Bethlehem before we can have Golgotha, we are saved through Golgotha, not Bethlehem. The Son of God is absolutely righteous. He was the one righteous grain. But His righteousness cannot save us. It cannot be imputed to us. God does mention the righteousness of Christ in the Bible. But He never says that Christ's righteousness is to be ours. The Bible says that Christ is our righteousness. It never says that Christ's righteousness is our righteousness. I would like to bring this out, for this will exalt the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Bible says that Christ is our righteousness. Christ Himself is our righteousness. We go to God in Christ. Christ is our righteousness.

Originally posted by @romans1009
<<I’d say I’m learned about some subjects but an authority? No, I wouldn’t say that.>>

Page 3 of the “works-based and faith-based salvation” thread.

Yes that is what I was referring to and you did say you were “learned” in Christianity so I would have expected you to know those things on the previous page, including the coming of the holy spirt at Pentecost triggering what was effectively the apostolic period for the disciples.

I’m being a bit argumentative over this I acknowledge. And good for you for telling me where it was, that was a nice bit of honesty, thanks. I had started going through all your 90 pages of posts to find it, but am not feeling well and lost interest 5 pages in 😞

Originally posted by @sonship
On this Forum, perhaps on many of this nature, there can be a tendency to too eagerly jump to conclusions.

I know I have done it.
I know better that it has often been done to me.

No question it’s been done to me too. I was repeatedly and falsely accused of being Becker for more than a week.

Originally posted by @divegeester
Yes that is what I was referring to and you did say you were “learned” in Christianity so I would have expected you to know those things on the previous page, including the coming of the holy spirt at Pentecost triggering what was effectively the apostolic period for the disciples.

I’m being a bit argumentative over this I acknowledge. And good for ...[text shortened]... h all your 90 pages of posts to find it, but am not feeling well and lost interest 5 pages in 😞

I was aware of the Holy Spirit coming on the disciples at Pentecost; I just thought they had been emboldened and transformed before then, by seeing the Resurrected Christ.

That was due to amplifying in my mind what I read at the end of one of the Gospels and thinking Peter’s comment to the Pharisees - “We ought to obey God rather than men” - came before the disciples received the Holy Spirit.

Hope you feel better.

Originally posted by @romans1009
The Holy Spirit came upon the disciples earlier in Acts than I thought as Peter’s statement to the Pharisees, “We ought to obey God rather than men,” was after the disciples had received the Holy Spirit, and not before, as I previously thought.

Reposting to fix Peter’s quote in Acts:

“We ought to obey God, rather than men.”

Originally posted by @romans1009
Reposting to fix Peter’s quote in Acts:

“We ought to obey God, rather than men.”

Jesus was a man