Jesus Lunch

Originally posted by yoctobyte
Have you sinned since your profession of faith?

My sins is between God and me. You are no in a position to ask. I dont ask you and please dont ask me personal questions.

Hows that?

Originally posted by Rajk999
My sins is between God and me. You are no in a position to ask. I dont ask you and please dont ask me personal questions.

Hows that?

ahhh, your right... Sin is a personal matter which has no business here. Seems inconsistent to me is all, we can PM if you wish to continue.

No offense intended.

Originally posted by yoctobyte
ahhh, your right... Sin is a personal matter which has no business here. Seems inconsistent to me is all, we can PM if you wish to continue.

No offense intended.

Checkbaiters sin is also a personal matter between him and God. I bet you can never find anywhere that I asked him whether or not he sinned. Neither have I asked you such a question.

Why would I want to PM. I have no desire to confess my sins to you.

You still dont get it. All that has nothing to do with what Christ and the Apostles said about sin. Everytime this topic arises you derail it by asking these irrelevant questions.

Originally posted by Rajk999
My sins is between God and me. You are no in a position to ask. I dont ask you and please dont ask me personal questions.

Hows that?

You were not asked for specific sins that you may have committed, just if you have sinned AT ALL since professing your faith to Christ.

Your dilemma is that you have backed yourself into a corner. If you answer yes.....which is the obvious answer.....then you are saying that YOU are deeming Christ the minister of sin.

It was okay for you to use that statement from Paul when you spoke to checkbaiter, so it's only fair that you finish the discussion. I have been following this, waiting for you to just simply say 'yes' to the sin question, and the fact that you refuse to answer is very telling.

By the way, when you say "My sins" are between me and God, you have already hinted the answer.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Checkbaiters sin is also a personal matter between him and God. I bet you can never find anywhere that I asked him whether or not he sinned. Neither have I asked you such a question.

Why would I want to PM. I have no desire to confess my sins to you.

You still dont get it. All that has nothing to do with what Christ and the Apostles said about sin. Everytime this topic arises you derail it by asking these irrelevant questions.

I suggested PM to carry on the conversation is all, we are a little off topic. I can think of about a million things I would rather do than you confess your sins to me, never did ask.... You should read the context in which I asked my question, then you may know what I was getting at.

But I am no longer interested in this conversation, it has gotten very tedious and senseless.

Originally posted by Rajk999
My sins is between God and me. You are no in a position to ask. I dont ask you and please dont ask me personal questions.

Hows that?

More of the same with you.
"Do as I say, not as I do."

This is all we ever get from you in this forum.

Originally posted by chaney3
You were not asked for specific sins that you may have committed, just if you have sinned AT ALL since professing your faith to Christ.

Your dilemma is that you have backed yourself into a corner. If you answer yes.....which is the obvious answer.....then you are saying that YOU are deeming Christ the minister of sin.

It was okay for you to use that ...[text shortened]...
By the way, when you say "My sins" are between me and God, you have already hinted the answer.

Wrong pal. I am not interested in Checkbaiters sins and I have not backed myself into any corner.

Please take your time to read over this reference from Paul:

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. (Galatians 2:16-17 KJV)

Checkbaiters doctrine is contrary to what Paul says. Checkbaiters doctrine is:

- he already has eternal life
- he cannot lose it
- he does not have to account for his sin .

Can you see the difference between what Pauls doctrine and Checkbaiters doctrine?

The Old testament is very different from the New testament. Consider what Paul is saying here...

2 Cor 3:7-18
But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech — 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.
NKJV

People could be saved by trying to keep the law (they couldn't), but their effort (faith)was accounted as righteousness.
What the above verses are saying is that what was coming and has come in the New testament is so much more glorious that there is no comparison. Something changed.
This is where many are still blinded. The veil has not been lifted because they stumble at the Rock(Jesus Christ).
They cannot see how glorious His gift of salvation, eternal life is. They keep looking at their own unworthiness. They do not realize, it has nothing to do with me, not my good deeds, it has Everything to do with Jesus and what He accomplished for us!
King David saw it...

Ps 32:2
2 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity,
And in whose spirit there is no deceit.
NKJV

Nowhere in the Old Testament do you see verses like this, with guarantees!

Eph 1:13-14

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
NKJV

They stumble at verses like Rajk keeps spewing, and don't consider they are not understanding them. They cannot both be true. God can't guarantee salvation and at the same time say you can lose it "if".
The verses he refers to, have to be reconciled with the clear verses, and it has been done.

Here is a great commentary on Rajk's favorite verse about losing your salvation. This is from STF...

He 6:6 “and then have fallen away it is impossible to renew them again to repentance.” This verse reflects the permanence of salvation that is spoken of in so many other places in the Epistles [see Appendix 1: “The Permanence of Christian Salvation”]. This verse is not about losing salvation and not being able to regain it, although that is what many people think. If this verse were about losing one’s salvation, then we need to be clear about what it is saying, because it would be saying that if a saved person sins and loses his salvation, he cannot be forgiven and be saved again because that is “impossible.”

Could this one verse in Hebrews contradict all of the other verses in the Epistles that indicate the New Birth is permanent? A principle of interpretation is that the many clear verses on a subject outweigh what a contradictory verse seems to be saying. Also, can it really be true that the Bible says if a saved person sins and falls away from the faith it is “impossible” for him to get forgiveness and be saved again? Even in the Old Testament God implored the people of Israel to forsake evil and return to Him. Could it be that in the Old Testament a person could turn away from God but be accepted back with open arms if he would just ask God for forgiveness, but in the Christian Church if a person sins and falls away it is “impossible” for him to come back? That makes no sense.

A study of the Scripture shows us that people who sinned were welcomed back into the Christian community. For example, in 2 Corinthians 2:5-11 the Apostle Paul asked the Church to welcome back a person who had sinned. In Galatians 6:1 people who sin are to be “restored.” The Church Epistles are filled with exhortations for Christians to stop sinning and obey God. The invitation of God always is for people to stop sinning and come back to Him. That fact in itself tells us there is a different way to understand Hebrews 6:6 than believing it is saying a saved person cannot repent after sinning.

We also see God’s forgiveness and restoration daily in our churches. Our churches have many people who were strong in the faith at one time, then leave the faith for a while, then repent of their sin and return to church and the Christian lifestyle. Is there anyone who will say that all those people, who are now valuable members of the church, are actually not saved because it was “impossible” to renew them to the faith once they left the faith? We hope not.

If this verse does not mean that it is “impossible” for someone who left the faith to be forgiven and return to God, then what does it mean? It means that it is “impossible” to renew a sinner to repentance because once a Christian repents and gets saved that salvation is permanent. It is “impossible” for the Christian to lose his salvation, so it is “impossible” for him to repent and get saved again. Every Christian can and does sin, but the sin, even egregious sin, does not cause a person to lose his salvation. Since the person’s salvation was never lost, the person cannot “renew” himself to “repentance.” Everyone can only repent and be saved one time. After that, when we sin, we can repent of our sin and be forgiven, but we do not get saved again because we never lost our salvation. Salvation is by the New Birth, and it is permanent.

What happens when a Christian sins and asks for forgiveness is clear from 1 John 1:8, 9: “If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” These verses in 1 John assume that Christians will sin. In fact, 1 John 1:8 says that if we think we do not sin, we are deceiving ourselves. However, neither 1 John nor any other book of the New Testament has a warning such as, “Be careful! We all sin, but if you sin so horribly you fall away, you will not be able to be saved again.” No! Instead are the comforting words that if we confess our sin, God will cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Scholars who have studied this section of Scripture do not know why God addressed the permanence of our salvation by telling us it was impossible to be renewed to repentance. However, there are a couple possibilities we should consider. One is that there are many other places God plainly indicates that it is impossible to lose salvation. He calls it “birth,” and birth is permanent. He says our salvation is “guaranteed” (2 Cor. 1:22; 5:5; Eph. 1:14). Furthermore, He says we are already in heaven (Eph. 2:6). Saying it is impossible to renew our repentance would be just one more way that God would tell us that our salvation is permanent.

It is also possible that given the prevailing Jewish mindset of salvation by works, the idea of a permanent salvation was very upsetting to those determined to cling to their Jewish heritage. Thus Hebrews, rather than saying anything about someone losing his salvation, states the message in the opposite terms of it being impossible to repent again. If it were possible to renew oneself to repentance, then that would be saying that the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ was not sufficient to cover a person’s sins once and for all, which is not the case. The one time sacrifice of Christ, and his substitution for the sinner, made that sinner righteous for all time, not just until he sinned the next time.

There is another good reason to believe that Hebrews 6:6 is about the permanence of salvation and not about a person falling away and then it being “impossible” for him to get saved again. There is no instruction in the New Testament about exactly what a Christian would have to do to fall away so completely that it would then be impossible for him to be saved again. Everyone sins, and the Word of the Lord is that to be forgiven we just confess our sin to God. If there was a sin that was so horrible that it made regaining salvation “impossible,” it surely seems that our loving Father would let us know what that was. Our earthly fathers sternly warn us about dangers, and so it certainly seems that if there was a sin from which we could not repent, our Heavenly Father would certainly warn us of it. But there is no such warning. Nowhere is the Church Epistles is a warning saying, “Do not do such and such, because if you do it will be impossible for you to regain your salvation.” That fact alone is very good evidence that this verse is not about a person losing his salvation and not being able to regain it. There is the verse about not being forgiven for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, but this verse in Hebrews does not seem to be about that specific sin. Furthermore, Hebrews is written to people in the Grace Administration, when salvation is permanent, whereas Jesus was talking to people who lived before the Grace Administration started (see commentary on Ephesians 3:2).

Having given good evidence that this verse is about the permanence of salvation, there is one more thing that we have to consider as to why God has worded this verse the way He did, which seems very harsh, and that has to do with the overall context of this section. The whole section is written in a harsh way, with serious warnings for people to be faithful. For example, verses seven and eight speak of land that is blessed if it bears good fruit, but cursed if it does not. Orthodox Christian doctrine about heaven and hell has done a great disservice to Christians in that it has not given clear reasons to excel as a Christian. Many preachers teach about heaven as if “just getting in” is what matters. While it is true that there is no greater blessing anyone can have than having everlasting life, there is a lot more to consider. For one thing, we will not spend eternity in “heaven,” but on earth, and we will be subjects in the Kingdom of Christ on earth [see Appendix 3: “Christ’s Future Kingdom on Earth”]. Our “jobs” in the Kingdom will be assigned in relation to how we have lived our life on earth. If we have not been faithful, we will be there, but as Corinthians says, with nothing, just as someone who has survived a fire (cp. 1 Cor. 3:15; see commentary on 2 Corinthians 5:10). It is quite possible that a person living in the Kingdom with nothing, as if he had barely escaped a fire, is much worse than Christians generally imagine.

http://www.revisedenglishversion.com/commentary/Hebrews/6

Originally posted by Rajk999
Wrong pal. I am not interested in Checkbaiters sins and I have not backed myself into any corner.

Please take your time to read over this reference from Paul:

[i]Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not ...[text shortened]... r his sin .

Can you see the difference between what Pauls doctrine and Checkbaiters doctrine?

I'm not sure what I am missing here. Your Galatians verses clearly state that we are NOT justified by works, but rather faith in Jesus Christ. "By the works of the law no flesh be justified".

What is curious to me about your posting is that you seem to suggest that YOU are somehow NOT a sinner because you turned to Jesus, and I find that interesting, which is why I wanted to see your reply when asked about sin. Are you saying that? Do you believe that only the 'true' followers / believers in Jesus do NOT commit any sin?

Originally posted by chaney3
I'm not sure what I am missing here. Your Galatians verses clearly state that we are NOT justified by works, but rather faith in Jesus Christ. "By the works of the law no flesh be justified".

What is curious to me about your posting is that you seem to suggest that YOU are somehow NOT a sinner because you turned to Jesus, and I find that interesting, wh ...[text shortened]... that? Do you believe that only the 'true' followers / believers in Jesus do NOT commit any sin?

Before you ask about me and my personal situation, try first to understand my point.

Again, there is a clear difference between what Paul and the Apostles preach and what Checkbaiter and others believe.

Are you able to see where the difference is or do you need me to explain again.

An interesting observation. The Jesus Lunch which meets in a public park with a permit from the city which is allegedly leased to the school has competition. I wonder if the same scruitniy that is being forced upon the Jesus Lunch organizers because of the lease is being forced upon "The Madison-based Freedom From Religion Foundation" who has organized their own snacks for the kids. Furthermore, are the people organizing the protest in the park holders of a protesting permit, I think it may be required. Food for thought.

Of the students gathered in Fireman's Park Tuesday, about half strongly opposed and half strongly supported the event. The Madison-based Freedom From Religion Foundation was on hand to distribute snacks, as well.

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/local/education/local_schools/middleton-high-school-s-jesus-lunch-draws-hundreds-to-participate/article_c6902f06-3ad1-5e7b-99d1-cb84d3ad6acd.html

Listening to some religious mumbo-jumbo in exchange for a free lunch, sounds like a good deal to me.

Originally posted by KazetNagorra
Listening to some religious mumbo-jumbo in exchange for a free lunch, sounds like a good deal to me.

You missed the point.

If just one of these kids ends up "born again" it will have been worth it.