Originally posted by jaywillWhy not tackle them numerically.
twhitehead writes:
[b]1. Paul focused more on 'salvation by faith' and Jesus more on 'salvation by works'.
2. Paul made Christianity into a religion for all, whereas Jesus focused mainly on Jews.
3. Paul saw Jesus as God whereas I don't think Jesus really made that claim.
Which one of these bogus ignorant statements would you like me to t ...[text shortened]... k first.
#1 or #2 or #3 ? I think I'll do one post per point today.
Anyone?[/b]
Just remember that you are not allowed to use your own creative interpretation. ie the meaning of any Biblical text you present must be clear to us atheists as well as to theists.
Nevermind, let's shoot all three of them down and get to the truth:
twhitehead says:
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1. Paul focused more on 'salvation by faith' and Jesus more on 'salvation by works'.
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John's Gospel records this:
Then they said to Him, What shall we do that we may work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said to them, THIS IS THE WORK OF GOD, THAT YOU BELIEVE IN HIM WHOM HE HAS SENT." (John 6:28,29) (My emphasis)
Hmmm, the "WORK" of God is to "BELIEVE" in the Father who sent the Son What happened, twhitehead, to Jesus focus on salvation by works?
twhitehead goes on to #2
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2. Paul made Christianity into a religion for all, whereas Jesus focused mainly on Jews.
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In Christianity's most popular verse you have the phrase "WHOSOEVER" -
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that every one [or whosoever] believes into Him would not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16)
Arguably one of Christianity's most quoted and popular passages.
But twhiteheads assumption is also rather shortsighted because there are branches of Christianity, ie. Holiness, Church of Christ Disciples, and Pentacostal denominations enfluence by Arminianism rather than Calvinism which DO preach salvation by works. So twhitehead's charge is not only wrong but incorrectly general.
Then twhiteheads third charge:
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3. Paul saw Jesus as God whereas I don't think Jesus really made that claim.
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No, Paul got it from Jesus:
The Jews then said to Him, You are not yet fifty years old, and you have seen Abraham?
Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham was I AM.
So they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus was hidden and went out of the temple. (John 8:57-59)
They picked up stones to stone Jesus for blasphamy because they rightly understood that by Him saying "I AM" He was definitely identifying Himself with the same God of the Old Testament Who appointed Moses to lead the Israelites out of Egypt (See Exodus 3:14)
What is amazing is that this poster twhitehead recycles the same arguments year after year (at least month after month) and never seems to learn anything.
When I get a certain point about Evolution, at least I know not to make a certain mistake over again. This guy seems never to learn ANYTHING about the Gospel.
Originally posted by twhiteheadHow does atheism create rationalizations that remove obstacles from sinning? I don't see how you can equate it with "Salvation by Grace Christianity".
How does atheism create rationalizations that remove obstacles from sinning? I don't see how you can equate it with "Salvation by Grace Christianity".
[b]I'd say that acting righteously for selfish reasons is basically doing the right things for the wrong reasons. I'd put "getting into heaven" in this category.
So the "Salvation through Righteousn ...[text shortened]... so much time talking about salvation? Surely that can only serve to tempt and mislead?[/b]
Please read my earlier posts. I've already addressed these issues.
So the "Salvation through Righteousness" that you praised earlier in the thread is either:
1. doing the right things for the wrong reasons.
2. only truly praiseworthy when salvation is not in fact the motivation for the righteous person. But then why did Christ (and others since him) spend so much time talking about salvation? Surely that can only serve to tempt and mislead?
Maybe we need to talk about "salvation" here. Salvation from what? Sin. A righteous person does not sin, so by definition a righteous person has "salvation". I'm not sure why you see a problem here.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneOK, that's clear enough. Thanks.
The point I was trying to make was about how people create rationalizations that remove obstacles from sinning (or as you put it - doing morally wrong things) and how "Salvation by Grace Christianity" puts itself on equal footing with atheism in this way.
I'd say that acting righteously for selfish reasons is basically doing the right things for the ...[text shortened]... eaven" in this category.
This would be so much easier in a face-to-face conversation 🙂
Originally posted by twhitehead2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
You wouldn't (and can't) know because your secret decoder ring is silently removing all the contradictions.
Of course what we should really be discussing is the difference in theology between Paul and the Gospel writers. I wonder which actually knew more about the actual historical Jesus.
I wonder if you can understand this verse. I quote it in direct response to your post. In that context can you understand what Paul means here?
That is if you are at all serious as to why there appears to be contradictions between the four Gospels and Paul's' epistles.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneWithout righteousness there is no salvation.
Please read my earlier posts. Jesus taught salvation throught righteousness.
Unfortunately you have the misguided notion that you can gain this righteousness by your own efforts.
So, as soon as you "stop sinning" you can push that idea. Until then you are just like the rest of us, a sinner.
Originally posted by jaywillI've read debates like this one on here before. The next step is the claim that John, like Paul, also wished to deify Christ and thus slanted his gospel to attain that end.
Nevermind, let's shoot all three of them down and get to the truth:
twhitehead says:
[b]========================
1. Paul focused more on 'salvation by faith' and Jesus more on 'salvation by works'.
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John's Gospel records this:
Then they said to Him, What shall we do that we may work the works of God?
istake over again. This guy seems never to learn ANYTHING about the Gospel.[/b]
Originally posted by josephwWhether you like it or not, Jesus says that we must stop sinning:
Without righteousness there is no salvation.
Unfortunately you have the misguided notion that you can gain this righteousness by your own efforts.
So, as soon as you "stop sinning" you can push that idea. Until then you are just like the rest of us, a sinner.
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever"
"Depart from me, you who work iniquity."
But then, why would anyone choose to follow Jesus when it's so much easier to follow Paul?
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneYou can quote Jesus all day, but if you fail to obey the injunction then you are beating a dead horse.
Whether you like it or not, Jesus says that we must stop sinning:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever"
"Depart from me, you who work iniquity."
But then, why would anyone choose to follow Jesus when it's so much easier to follow Paul?
Originally posted by SwissGambitHey, I like your profile with the "accept Jesus and get e free playstation" thing. Christianity is full of such things. It's a shame.
I've read debates like this one on here before. The next step is the claim that John, like Paul, also wished to deify Christ and thus slanted his gospel to attain that end.
I haven't figured out yet what your belief is. Care to fill me in?
Originally posted by josephwYou can quote Paul all day, but if you fail to obey the words of Jesus who are you following?
You can quote Jesus all day, but if you fail to obey the injunction then you are beating a dead horse.
"Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord', yet you don't do what I tell you?"
It's as if Jesus had you in mind when He said this.