Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Do the words of Jesus mean nothing to you?

Matthew 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; [b]but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day,'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' ...[text shortened]... 3:3
I tell you, no, but [b]unless you repent, you will all perish in the same way.[/b]

do YOU not understand the word UNLESS ? When we repent, we are forgiven. We OFTEN must repent--it's not a one-time, now-I'll-never-sin-again thing. I have spent entirely too long on someone like you; I pray you will see the light. 🙂

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
do YOU not understand the word UNLESS ? When we repent, we are forgiven. We OFTEN must repent--it's not a one-time, now-I'll-never-sin-again thing. I have spent entirely too long on someone like you; I pray you will see the light. 🙂

Do you not understand the word REPENT?

While you can be in the process of trying to repent, true repentance only happens once. It is when you actually overcome sin.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever"

Try understanding and following the words of Jesus.

"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him DENY HIMSELF, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it." Luke 9:23-24

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Do you not understand the word REPENT?

While you can be in the process of trying to repent, true repentance only happens once. It is when you actually overcome sin.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, [b]Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever"

Try understanding and following the words o ...[text shortened]... lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it." Luke 9:23-24[/b]

While you can be in the process of trying to repent, true repentance only happens once. It is when you actually overcome sin.
------------ToO-------------------------------------------------

How do you know? Have you overcome sin? Anyway did Jesus say this? Sounds like your own intepretation to me.

In any case if this was really true then why did Jesus teach his followers the Lords Prayer?

1) Within the Lord's Prayer is the "forgive us our trespasses section "

2) A man who trespasses cannot logically have overcome sin

3) Jesus taught his followers to confess their sins to God regularly.

4) Therefore this directly contradicts what you are saying. It doesn't add up.

5) You will never accept this because you can't debate or discuss openly and fairly.

6) Nevertheless I have proved your position to be self contradictory and illogical.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Do you not understand the word REPENT?

While you can be in the process of trying to repent, true repentance only happens once. It is when you actually overcome sin.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, [b]Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever"

Try understanding and following the words o ...[text shortened]... lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it." Luke 9:23-24[/b]

Generally , you treat John 8:32 as if it was the only thing he ever said. Jesus also taught his followers to regularly confess their sins to God. He logically would not have done this if overcoming sin was a one time deal as you say. Your position is completly irrational and contradictory.

Your interpretation of his words is in logical contradiction with the Lord's prayer . Therefore , logic dictates that your interpretation must be seriously doubted and alternative explanations must be sought. Which part of logic do you not understand?

Originally posted by knightmeister
Generally , you treat John 8:32 as if it was the only thing he ever said. Jesus also taught his followers to regularly confess their sins to God. He logically would not have done this if overcoming sin was a one time deal as you say. Your position is completly irrational and contradictory.

Your interpretation of his words is in logical contradic ...[text shortened]... doubted and alternative explanations must be sought. Which part of logic do you not understand?

ROLE PLAYED HYPOTHETICAL RESPONSE-----(not to be confused with a real ToOne response)

ToOne - " KM I do see that you have some kind of point here. When Jesus is asked by his followers how they should pray he lays out the Lord's Prayer for them. It does seem strange that Jesus would be asking his followers to ask forgiveness for their trespasses if at the same time he expected that they should have overcome sin. I wonder though whether "trespass" actually means sin in this case? "

Originally posted by knightmeister
ROLE PLAYED HYPOTHETICAL RESPONSE-----(not to be confused with a real ToOne response)

ToOne - " KM I do see that you have some kind of point here. When Jesus is asked by his followers how they should pray he lays out the Lord's Prayer for them. It does seem strange that Jesus would be asking his followers to ask forgiveness for their trespasses if ...[text shortened]... ld have overcome sin. I wonder though whether "trespass" actually means sin in this case? "

*****HYPOTHETICAL ROLE PLAY (not to be confused with a real debate. Any views expressed by parties involved are purely speculative and not meant to represent the actual views of any third party)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

KM - " Thank you for your honest response. It is strange that Jesus would be asking his followers to ask forgiveness for their trespasses if he intended that they should have overcome sin completely. It is interesting also that he used the word trespass. I do think however that trespass is intended to mean a trespass or act done to someone else. It presumably does not mean trespass of land , but is more likely to mean a trespass of the Torah or act of unkindness to someone else.

Presumably , a "trespass" would have to be a sin of some sort otherwise it would not require forgiveness from God. Why would someone who had overcome sin require forgiveness from God? "

Originally posted by knightmeister
*****HYPOTHETICAL ROLE PLAY (not to be confused with a real debate. Any views expressed by parties involved are purely speculative and not meant to represent the actual views of any third party)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

KM - " Thank you for your honest response. It is strange that Jesus would be as ...[text shortened]... forgiveness from God. Why would someone who had overcome sin require forgiveness from God? "

*****HYPOTHETICAL ROLE PLAY (not to be confused with a real debate. Any views expressed by parties involved are purely speculative and not meant to represent the actual views of any third party)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

ToO- " But could Jesus not mean that we should ask forgiveness for our past trepasses only? Why does the Lord's Prayer have to mean that it is a daily confession? That would mean that one could overcome sin but ask for forgiveness for those past sins?"

Originally posted by knightmeister
*****HYPOTHETICAL ROLE PLAY (not to be confused with a real debate. Any views expressed by parties involved are purely speculative and not meant to represent the actual views of any third party)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

ToO- " But could Jesus not mean that we should ask forgiveness for our past tr on? That would mean that one could overcome sin but ask for forgiveness for those past sins?"

]*****HYPOTHETICAL ROLE PLAY (not to be confused with a real debate. Any views expressed by parties involved are purely speculative and not meant to represent the actual views of any third party)

KM- " It's pretty clear that the Lord's Prayer is an on going thing - possibly not daily - but it's always described by Jesus in that way. All the semantics of the Lord's Prayer suggests that it is to be repeated and to form part of a followers regular prayer life. So why would someone who had overcome sin need to repeatedly ask for forgiveness from God? Surely once God has forgiven a man who has overcome sin that's it. There should be no need for repeated pleas for forgiveness. Anyway , no objective reader of these passages would really think that "forgive us our trespasses" is anything other than an on-going prayer for on-going sins. There is simply no way that this can be easily resolved with John 8:32.
The Lord's Prayer forces us to re-consider and re-think Jesus's approach to sin. If you were being rational it would do the same for you. Why do you cling so rigidly to your own interpretation , when in your heart of hearts you must realise it doesn't add up? "

Originally posted by knightmeister
]*****HYPOTHETICAL ROLE PLAY (not to be confused with a real debate. Any views expressed by parties involved are purely speculative and not meant to represent the actual views of any third party)

KM- " It's pretty clear that the Lord's Prayer is an on going thing - possibly not daily - but it's always described by Jesus in that way. All the semant ...[text shortened]... interpretation , when in your heart of hearts you must realise it doesn't add up? "

*****HYPOTHETICAL ROLE PLAY (not to be confused with a real debate. Any views expressed by parties involved are purely speculative and not meant to represent the actual views of any third party)
[WORD TOO LONG]

ToO - " But Jesus says explicitly that one must overcome sin to be a follower of his. I don't understand why he would say that in the Lord's Prayer , I wonder if he actually considered those he was speaking to as his followers or not? "

Originally posted by knightmeister
*****HYPOTHETICAL ROLE PLAY (not to be confused with a real debate. Any views expressed by parties involved are purely speculative and not meant to represent the actual views of any third party)
[WORD TOO LONG] ...[text shortened]... yer , I wonder if he actually considered those he was speaking to as his followers or not? "

]*****HYPOTHETICAL ROLE PLAY (not to be confused with a real debate. Any views expressed by parties involved are purely speculative and not meant to represent the actual views of any third party)
[WORD TOO LONG]

KM- " We can only assume that Jesus was not just speaking to those people or just the disciples either , he was speaking to all of us. The Lord's Prayer is a message to all believers on how to pray. "

Originally posted by knightmeister
]*****HYPOTHETICAL ROLE PLAY (not to be confused with a real debate. Any views expressed by parties involved are purely speculative and not meant to represent the actual views of any third party)
[WORD TOO LONG] ...[text shortened]... was speaking to all of us. The Lord's Prayer is a message to all believers on how to pray. "

*****HYPOTHETICAL ROLE PLAY (not to be confused with a real debate. Any views expressed by parties involved are purely speculative and not meant to represent the actual views of any third party)
[WORD TOO LONG]

ToOne - " But how can you make an assumption like that ? It's just speculation. Jesus was talking to a set of people. How do you know he was also talking to the 21st Century church?"

Originally posted by knightmeister
*****HYPOTHETICAL ROLE PLAY (not to be confused with a real debate. Any views expressed by parties involved are purely speculative and not meant to represent the actual views of any third party)
[WORD TOO LONG] ...[text shortened]... talking to a set of people. How do you know he was also talking to the 21st Century church?"

*****HYPOTHETICAL ROLE PLAY (not to be confused with a real debate. Any views expressed by parties involved are purely speculative and not meant to represent the actual views of any third party)
[WORD TOO LONG]

KM- " You might be right. We don't know that this is the case. The problem is that if you argue that the Lord's Prayer is not relevant to us today or all believers , then by the same token I can argue the same about John 8:32 can I not? "