Job and God's Complicity

Okay, I can see how someone like a Bishop T.D. Jakes could turn a personally painful experience into something positive. But when my brother's Australian shepherd suffered from cancer--and ultimately had to be put down by the vet a few weeks ago--do you think the pain caused by the cancer did something good for the dog?

Originally posted by kirksey957
Ivanhoe, I am wondering if, in addition to a magesterium, you would agree that having a capacity to understand suffering from personal experience should be a prerequisite for a pastoral calling.

It could help ....... but how on earth are we going to select pastors using this criterium ? It's a mission impossible.

In my view a decent and thorough theological education and practice under the spiritual guidance of a (or more) experienced pastor(s) is a minimum we can ask for.

Originally posted by Paul Dirac
Okay, I can see how someone like a Bishop T.D. Jakes could turn a personally painful experience into something positive. But when my brother's Australian shepherd suffered from cancer--and ultimately had to be put down by the vet a few weeks ago--do you think the pain caused by the cancer did something good for the dog?

I cannot answer that. However, I think what we are getting at in this thread is how can I be in relationship to God and to others in the midst of suffering. At the most basic level I would suggest two ideas.
First I would suggest the loss of the dog creates a history of loss/pain that is carried with the individual. It becomes part of the relational history that your brother has with others (humans and dogs). Secondly, the loss is an invitation to seek comfort in some way. In the account of Job, his tormentors offer little comfort in terms of a relationship. They seem to have ideas and theories.

Just out of curiosity, what helped your brother if I may ask?

Originally posted by Paul Dirac
First off, I thank you for taking the time to engage me on this issue. 🙂

A question: are you using the phrase 'God answers prayers' in the wishy-washy sense that some believers are using it when they make the claim, "God answers a ...[text shortened]... in the church to gang up on God to make something positive happen.

I believe that God answers prayer and sometimes the answer is no,
and I do not believe for a minute that is wishy washy for a number of
reasons. First it would more than likely be our death if God didn’t
answer prayers in a responsible manner. Other times the answer is
yes too, but not granted the way we think it should be granted, those
times can be cool. Than there are the no answers because it is better
for us because if we get our way in a situtation it could harm us.

To begin with if God granted every request I would have no doubt that
everyone would be quickly aware of God, and that would simply mean
ever desire would be granted through prayer. Than our relationship
with God would be questionable, do we truly love God, or is it because
we get our every prayer granted? Would God simply be a like a genie
in a bottle for us if He behaved that way? As it has been show with
lottery winners, some times getting blessed can be the ruin of some
people, they cannot handle it; moreover, as the topic of suffering
comes into play that would be gone. No one wants to suffer, at least
anyone in their right mind as far as I believe anyway, so anything
gained through that eternally would be lost, because of God always
granting a yes to our prayers.

I believe that God is sovereign and that His wisdom needs to be
trusted, and there are things that He never takes away from us, the
greatest of all is that we can know He is always with us, and always for
us.
Kelly

Originally posted by Paul Dirac
First off, I thank you for taking the time to engage me on this issue. 🙂

A question: are you using the phrase 'God answers prayers' in the wishy-washy sense that some believers are using it when they make the claim, "God answers a ...[text shortened]... in the church to gang up on God to make something positive happen.

For the 2nd part of your post I thought it deserved a response for just
it. "I), if a certain future event would maximize the quantity of
goodness in the do you believe that God always arranges for that
event to come to pass..." I do believe God uses all things for the
good of those that love Him, those that don't He still cares for, but
He gives them what they want, and for some that is to have nothing
to do with God. I believe this life time here, is not where the we are
going to see the maximum good that is going to be displayed, but it
will be in an eternal setting, which this is not, this is temporal. Evil is
getting a shot, when that shot is over, all accounts will be settled
and that will be that, we will have maximum goodness for every living
thing, the lion lying down with the lamb and so on.
Kelly

Originally posted by ivanhoe
KellyJay: "I recall a couple that lost a baby to a health issue, the pastors (plural) of their church said, that the baby died because of the parents lack of faith. The church instead of comforting them, nearly destroyed them."

Reading ...[text shortened]... is communicating, it makes me angry and sad at the same time.

I'm unaware what a "Magisterium of the Faith* is, I'm not a Catholic,
though I married someone whose family is. I tend to not worry about
what denomination anyone belongs too, for I believe that it is our
relationship with Jesus Christ that matters, so you could be a good
this or that as far as men are concern, and still reject Christ in your
life and die in your sins, and just as confusing to some I imagine, that
you could have someone struggle hard but whose love for God never
fails, and God and them have to work out more than a few issues in
front of the world, and they get it done together. I'm sure that some
denominations have the topic of suffering right, some wrong, but that
is the way it is with millions of people floating around the planet trying
to get it right, some do, some do not.
Kelly

Originally posted by Paul Dirac
Okay, I can see how someone like a Bishop T.D. Jakes could turn a personally painful experience into something positive. But when my brother's Australian shepherd suffered from cancer--and ultimately had to be put down by the vet a few weeks ago--do you think the pain caused by the cancer did something good for the dog?

We live in a world that has been cursed, there are consquences to
that, that carry nothing I want to wish on anyone, human, animal,
or whatever.
Kelly

Originally posted by kirksey957
... Just out of curiosity, what helped your brother if I may ask?

I have only heard of the dog dying through a phone call with my parents, so I don't know what my brother is thinking.

But my point was to broaden the discussion from mere human suffering to the suffering of all species that have nervous systems.

Here is a prayer that I think separates the men from the boys in the church:

Lord, I know that You are all-powerful, and there is nothing You cannot do. So when the first members of the human species did something that displeased You, I have to believe that You were doing the very best possible thing in changing the rules of the Universe so that all future humans would be subject to illness, injury, pain and death. And being all-powerful, You certainly had the capability of changing the rules so that ONLY the human species would suffer these things, but instead You deliberately chose to make all species--oak trees, lizards, bacteria, and so on--die, and You chose to make all those species which have a nervous system and a brain suffer pain at times in their lives. Obviously You did not have to make the world work that way, but the fact that You did so must be absolutely praiseworthy! Therefore, I PRAISE You for cancer in dogs, broken wing bones in birds, fungus-induced death in birch trees, and all the other types of illness, injury and death in the plant and animal kingdoms. Amen.

Any believer who can pray thusly can be confident of being a Bible believer to the very end of his life. No amount of reasoning about the real world that he sees about him, with its implications for his belief system, is ever likely to make him lose his faith in the God of the Bible.

But those who cannot bring themselves to pray that prayer have some hope of coming over to the side of Rationalism some day.

Originally posted by KellyJay
... I believe that God is sovereign and that His wisdom needs to be trusted...

Then (with reference to my post directly above) you are one of the men of the church.

Originally posted by Paul Dirac
I have only heard of the dog dying through a phone call with my parents, so I don't know what my brother is thinking.

But my point was to broaden the discussion from mere human suffering to the suffering of all species that have nervous systems.

Here is a prayer that I think separates the men from the boys in the church:

[i]Lord, I know that You ...[text shortened]... hemselves to pray that prayer have some hope of coming over to the side of Rationalism some day.

Let me ask you something, do you believe reaping what one sows
is a valid just way of life?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
...do you believe reaping what one sows is a valid just way of life?
Kelly

I am trying to think what my brother's dog did that made it 'just' for him to get cancer. Sorry, but I can't think of any reasonable activity on the dog's part that should lead to that.

Originally posted by Paul Dirac
I am trying to think what my brother's dog did that made it 'just' for him to get cancer. Sorry, but I can't think of any reasonable activity on the dog's part that should lead to that.

Let me ask you something, do you believe reaping what one sows
is a valid just way of life?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Let me ask you something, do you believe reaping what one sows
is a valid just way of life?
Kelly

If there were some universe in which a scheme of the sort you are talking about actually worked reliably, all the time, without any exceptions, then there could be some justice to it. I will grant you that.

Originally posted by Paul Dirac
If there were some universe in which a scheme of the sort you are talking about actually worked reliably, all the time, without any exceptions, then there could be some justice to it. I will grant you that.

Okay, the reaping what one sows starts when an action is made,
meaning consequences good and bad will go on and they don't
stop once they start until they run its full course. So things done
that cause life and joy will run through time with us, and so will
those things that cause death and disease too.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Okay, the reaping what one sows starts when an action is made,
meaning consequences good and bad will go on and they don't
stop once they start until they run its full course. So things done
that cause life and joy will run through tim ...[text shortened]... so will
those things that cause death and disease too.
Kelly

So a small fish in the Pacific Ocean who bleeds to death over the course of an hour after getting her tail bitten off by a big fish is reaping what she sowed? Are you saying God really does want our world to work that way? Or is it that He is saddened that it works that way, but try though He might, He could not conceive of any better way to run things?