“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds. - John 8:58 - NIV
What is the context of John 8:58? What are the Jews actually asking Jesus, about his identity? who he is? or about his age?
The preceding verse makes it rather obvious that they are asking Jesus about his age, it reads,
“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
Jesus’ reply logically dealt with his age, the length of his existence, not with his identity as is alleged by those who wish to link the phrase (ego eimi), I am with Exodus 3:14. Thus the context itself can be utilised to disprove the claim that Jesus is referring to himself as God incarnate.
Going a little further, let us look at the claim that Jesus is actually quoting from Exodus 3:14, which reads in many dubious translations of the Bible as,
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you - Exodus 3:14 (King James version)
Let us examine the verse from the Septuagint (a Greek translation of some antiquity of the Hebrew portion of the Bible, essentially for Hellenised Jews who could not read Hebrew) It reads rather interestingly,
'ego eimi ho on' - 'I am The Being'. You will of course notice that at Exodus 3:14 God is not saying 'I am that I am', he is saying, 'I am the being', or , 'I am the one that exists'. Separating 'ego eimi', ( I am) off as if it were meant to stand alone is nothing more than a deceitful sleight of hand, totally distorting the role the phrase plays in the entire sentence and there is nothing in the verse of John 8:58 to suggest that Jesus is even tenuously quoting from Exodus 3:14 as has been alleged by trinitarians and those with extra Biblical beliefs.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieJohn 5:14-18
“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds. - John 8:58 - NIV
What is the context of John 8:58? What are the Jews actually asking Jesus, about his identity? who he is? or about his age?
The preceding verse mak ...[text shortened]... tself can be utilised to disprove the claim that Jesus is referring to himself as God incarnate.
Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.
And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
The context of John 8:58 is the theme of the entire book of John, which clearly portrays Jesus as God in the flesh from the first verse of chapter one.
In the above verses it is made perfectly clear that why those that eventually killed Jesus, did so because Jesus clearly made Himself equal with God.
There are hundreds of verses throughout scripture that clearly portray the prophesied messiah as God Himself.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWrong!
Going a little further, let us look at the claim that Jesus is actually quoting from Exodus 3:14, which reads in many dubious translations of the Bible as,
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you - Exodus 3:14 (King James version)
Let us examine the verse ...[text shortened]... ting from Exodus 3:14 as has been alleged by trinitarians and those with extra Biblical beliefs.
hayah and eimi mean exactly the same thing. Jesus meant exactly what Moses said God said to him.
You are confusing yourself with over complicating the simple meaning of the text.
Originally posted by josephwnonsense I have just demonstrated that the Jews were asking Jesus about his age, what is it about that that yet fails you? Here it is again,
John 5:14-18
Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.
And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
Bu ...[text shortened]... dreds of verses throughout scripture that clearly portray the prophesied messiah as God Himself.
“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
that is not a question about who he is, his identity, its a question about his age, note the terms fifty years old.
Originally posted by josephwNo they don't mean the same thing I have just told you what it means. Jesus does not say 'I am the being', 'ego eimi ho on' and no amount of waffle from you can change the fact - I repeat Jesus says nothing about his identity, he is not even asked about his identity! he is asked about his age as the context clearly indicates
Wrong!
hayah and eimi mean exactly the same thing. Jesus meant exactly what Moses said God said to him.
You are confusing yourself with over complicating the simple meaning of the text.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieFIGHT...FIGHT;;;;;;
No they don't mean the same thing I have just told you what it means. Jesus does not say 'I am the being', 'ego eimi ho on' and no amount of waffle from you can change the fact - I repeat Jesus says nothing about his identity, he is not even asked about his identity! he is asked about his age as the context clearly indicates
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI think you should be more concerned with why Jesus never said he was the archangel Michael and you claim that he is.
nonsense I have just demonstrated that the Jews were asking Jesus about his age, what is it about that that yet fails you? Here it is again,
“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
As sonship quite succinctly pointed out to you, Christians have far more scriptural evidence to support the claim that Jesus is Jehovah, than the Jehovah's witnesses have to support their claim that he is an archangel.
Originally posted by redbadgerIts not a fight dear Badger for I am confident that logic and reason and evidence will triumph over waffle and religious bias. He has claimed two things,
FIGHT...FIGHT;;;;;;
1. that Jesus quotes from Exodus 3:14, evidence nil.
2. that the terms are the same which is simply a falsehood, the terms are not the same, Jesus does not say, 'ego eimi ho on', 'I am the being'.
Now if you could beat up FMF's lackey slobberjeester for me you would be doing me a big favour. I have no time for the imbecile and will waste not an iota of text on him.
Just a few verses later a blind man is cured by Jesus and he uses exactly the same words that Jesus does in John 8:58, here they are,
Some claimed that he was. Others said, "No, he only looks like him." But he himself insisted, "I am the man." John 9:9 - NIV , 'I am' 'ego eimi'.
So if we are to follow the trinitarians logic this blind man must also be God, for he has used the exact same phrase that they claim Jesus has used from exodus 3:14. ego eimi, 'I am'. If ego eimi is not a proclamation of divine identity in the mouth of a blind man why does it suddenly become one in the mouth of Jesus only a few verses earlier? Does Jesus have miraculous powers of transformation on Greek phrases?
Looks like its back of the net time - Vince
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWell, before I do that I would like to address your assertions first.
Its not a fight dear Badger for I am confident that logic and reason and evidence will triumph over waffle and religious bias. He has claimed two things,
1. that Jesus quotes from Exodus 3:14, evidence nil.
2. that the terms are the same which is simply a falsehood, the terms are not the same, Jesus does not say, 'ego eimi ho on', 'I am the bei ...[text shortened]... ing me a big favour. I have no time for the imbecile and will waste not an iota of text on him.
You are quibbling over words robbie. The body of scripture, with the aide of The Spirit will be all you need to see the truth of the matter. The scriptures are a whole picture. The picture is of Christ. God is Christ. No other can save.
2 Corinthians 4:6
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Originally posted by josephwJoseph I am interested in Biblical facts, that which can be established empirically with logic and reason, not mysticism. Where by the way does Jesus claim to be equal with God for I have read the passage at John 8 three or four times and I cannot locate it, is it in another parallel account?
Well, before I do that I would like to address your assertions first.
You are quibbling over words robbie. The body of scripture, with the aide of The Spirit will be all you need to see the truth of the matter. The scriptures are a whole picture. The picture is of Christ. God is Christ. No other can save.
2 Corinthians 4:6
For God, who commanded the ...[text shortened]... not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieAs a neutral observer, i think Joseph is winning this argument.
Joseph I am interested in Biblical facts, that which can be established empirically with logic and reason, not mysticism. Where by the way does Jesus claim to be equal with God for I have read the passage at John 8 three or four times and I cannot locate it, is it in another parallel account?
Originally posted by robbie carrobieJohn 5:18 c&d.., but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
Joseph I am interested in Biblical facts, that which can be established empirically with logic and reason, not mysticism. Where by the way does Jesus claim to be equal with God for I have read the passage at John 8 three or four times and I cannot locate it, is it in another parallel account?
Maybe you can't "locate" where Jesus said He was equal with God, but the Jews had no problem understanding what Jesus meant by what He said.
Trust The Word robbie. It's in plain simple English. I think you need to let go of your powers of "logic and reason" and simply allow the text to speak for itself.
Your ability to use reason and logic doesn't trump God's Word. In fact, it is a hindrance.