06 Nov 11
Originally posted by RJHindsif you believe what the holy bible tells you about jesus, you should also look up what it claims about jesus's burial.
The point is that we can believe what the Holy Bible tells us about Jesus, if
He existed as a real person and His resurrection really occurred as He had
prophecied. The empty tomb along with the burial garments support the
fact that He did rise from the dead and therefore we can trust the other
things He said like being the son of man and the Son of God. As the apostle
Paul said, "Our faith is in vain if He has not risen."
06 Nov 11
Originally posted by sumydidthe bible proves the shroud of turin a hoax. it's in the burial details of jesus. the bible refers to:
No. It's not.
-strips of linen and a separate face cloth.
..the SoT is a single piece
-linen tightly wrapped around the body
..the SoT shows an image produced by a lightly placed shroud around the body
further, in jewish burial customs, the body is washed.
..the SoT shows an unwashed body
as john calvin aptly pointed out, anyone who believes the shroud is "convicted of falsehood and deceit".
06 Nov 11
1 edit
Originally posted by VoidSpiritWhere are your quotes from the Holy Bible with references? As far as
the bible proves the shroud of turin a hoax. it's in the burial details of jesus. the bible refers to:
-strips of linen and a separate face cloth.
..the SoT is a single piece
-linen tightly wrapped around the body
..the SoT shows an image produced by a lightly placed shroud around the body
further, in jewish burial customs, the body is wash ...[text shortened]... vin aptly pointed out, anyone who believes the shroud is "convicted of falsehood and deceit".
the washing, there was little time for this since the Sabbath was upon
them so they had to finish before sunset. That is not absolute anyway.
Don't forget there are two cloths - the Shroud of Turin and the Sudarium
in Spain.
http://www.frtommylane.com/homilies/pilgrimage/sudarium.htm
06 Nov 11
Surely you aren't arguing that RJH and I believe a shroud is the only cloth that was used?
And I'm curious about this reference to John Calvin, can you supply a link?
By the way, truth be told I'm about 25/75 or less on the odds of this being the actual Shroud, however, I have not seen any evidence that satisfactorily and completely denies its claim of authenticity.
06 Nov 11
1 edit
Originally posted by sumydid
Surely you aren't arguing that RJH and I believe a shroud is the only cloth that was used?
it's irrelevant how many cloths you believe were used. the 'evidence' does not jive with the written account: strips of linen, tightly wrapped around the body.
and despite what RJH claims, it does not take long to wash and clean a body, they would not disrespect the dead by wrapping a gritty, bloody body, especially concerning whose body we are talking about.
And I'm curious about this reference to John Calvin, can you supply a link?
it's in his book "The Treatise on Relics." he mentions is as the shroud at nice, where the shroud that later became known as the shroud of turin was located during the time he wrote the book.
By the way, truth be told I'm about 25/75 or less on the odds of this being the actual Shroud, however, I have not seen any evidence that satisfactorily and completely denies its claim of authenticity.
then there is no point in your arguing to defend the shroud as evidence, which is what the current discussion on the shroud is about.
06 Nov 11
Originally posted by RJHindsyes, many relics are claimed as authentic by the churches. those are all irrelevant as we are talking about the shroud of turin, which as depicted, is a single piece that was laid loosely around an entire body.
Where are your quotes from the Holy Bible with references? As far as
the washing, there was little time for this since the Sabbath was upon
them so they had to finish before sunset. That is not absolute anyway.
Don't forget there are two cloths - the Shroud of Turin and the Sudarium
in Spain.
http://www.frtommylane.com/homilies/pilgrimage/sudarium.htm
as i have already mentioned, a cursory reading of biblical accounts disprove the authenticity of the SoT. this will be an opportunity for you to read the bible. get to it and let us know what you discover!
06 Nov 11
Originally posted by VoidSpiritThis supports my claim that there IS no proof of God. It's not possible.
the bible proves the shroud of turin a hoax. it's in the burial details of jesus. the bible refers to:
-strips of linen and a separate face cloth.
..the SoT is a single piece
-linen tightly wrapped around the body
..the SoT shows an image produced by a lightly placed shroud around the body
further, in jewish burial customs, the body is wash ...[text shortened]... vin aptly pointed out, anyone who believes the shroud is "convicted of falsehood and deceit".
Proof negates Faith. Therefore there cannot be proof. Any so-called proof is bound to be insufficient.
As for what John Calvin says, well, he IS John Calvin. I wouldn't exactly hold him up as "the last word" on anything.
06 Nov 11
Originally posted by VoidSpiritI wasn't arguing FOR the Shroud being authentic. I only said that your blanket (no pun intended) statement that the Shroud is a hoax, is incorrect in my opinion, as the experts are still fiercely debating its authenticity to this day.Originally posted by sumydid
Surely you aren't arguing that RJH and I believe a shroud is the only cloth that was used?
it's irrelevant how many cloths you believe were used. the 'evidence' does not jive with the written account: strips of linen, tightly wrapped around the body.
and despite what RJH claims, it does not take l ...[text shortened]... nd the shroud as evidence, which is what the current discussion on the shroud is about.
I'm amazed that this actual Shroud is mentioned in Calvin's Treatise On Relics so I'm gonna go research and see what comes up. Thanks.
06 Nov 11
1 edit
Originally posted by VoidSpiritI have already read the Holy Bible and there is no such statements as you
yes, many relics are claimed as authentic by the churches. those are all irrelevant as we are talking about the shroud of turin, which as depicted, is a single piece that was laid loosely around an entire body.
as i have already mentioned, a cursory reading of biblical accounts disprove the authenticity of the SoT. this will be an opportunity for you to read the bible. get to it and let us know what you discover!
claim. That is why you can not provide the references.
06 Nov 11
Originally posted by RJHindsokay, since you're asking to be schooled;
I have already read the Holy Bible and there is no such statements as you
claim. That is why you can not provide the references.
added highlights for clarity.
Mark 15:46: "And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre." (KJV)
note, "wrapped"
Matthew 27:59: "And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth."
note, "wrapped"
Luke 23:53: "And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid."
note, "wrapped"
Luke 24:12: "Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, wondering in himself at that which was come to pass." The New International Version (NIV) renders this passage: "Bending over, he saw the strips of linen lying by themselves..."
note, plural, strips of linen.
John 19:39-40: "And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.
Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury."
note, plural clothes
note, they had plenty of time to prepare the body with spices and aloes, and in the manner that the jews bury.
John 20:6-7: "Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie, And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself." Again, the NIV refers to "strips of linen."
note, multiple articles, included separately from the facecloth.
these verses are referring to linen bandages wrapped tightly around a body after it's been cleaned and prepared with spices and lotions.
i hope you enjoyed this lesson on the bible. please read it next time and spare me the trouble.
06 Nov 11
Originally posted by VoidSpiritIn reference to Luke 24:12 the following link is to the Greek Interlinear.
okay, since you're asking to be schooled;
added highlights for clarity.
Mark 15:46: "And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and [b]wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre." (KJV)
note, "wrapped"
Matthew 27:59: "And when Joseph had taken th ...[text shortened]... lesson on the bible. please read it next time and spare me the trouble.[/b]
http://interlinearbible.org/luke/24-12.htm
The Greek word "othonia" is the plural of "othonion" meaning "a piece of linen".
I looked up the Greek word "othonion" in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the
New Testament to get the meaning in the singular.
So "othonia" is correctly translated "linen cloths" or "pieces of linen". This
could just be two pieces of linen, one for the face and another one to wrap the
whole body. So this does not disprove that the pieces of linen cloths were not
the Shroud of Turin to wrap the body and the Sudarium to cover the face before
the body was wrapped.
The following links are again to the Greek Interlinear For John 20:6-7.
http://interlinearbible.org/john/20-6.htm
http://interlinearbible.org/john/20-7.htm
Notice that the plural form "othonia" is in John 20:6 but the singular form
is in John 20:7. So the "linen cloths" in verse 6 includes both cloths. But
in verse 7 the "face cloth" is said to be separate from the other cloth.
In verse 7 the singular "othonion" is incorrectly translated as "linen cloths"
when it should be "linen Cloth".
The above seems to prove that there are only two pieces of linen cloths,
one for the face and one to cover the whole body.
I think you are intelligent enough to understand this.