Judgement, Injustice, and love

Originally posted by whodey
But love has a very "dark" side, does it not?

For example, love opens us up to pain. If we did not ever love anyone, would we cry if they died? If we did not love, would we feel bad if they did not love us back? If we did not love, would we ever punish our children when they get out of line? Would we ever help those in need even though it may put us out financially or in terms of demands on our time?

Oh, so God allowed this woman to be raped and stabbed because he was punishing her for getting out of line. That is your view?

Originally posted by sumydid
Ah yes... let's not miss the opportunity to use the ol' "woman repeatedly raped and stabbed" argument.

I guess Pleasantville is the only acceptable reality if a loving Creator exists. Otherwise, the Creator must be evil and "insane" as another puts it.

Sheesh.

Ah good old binary reasoning rising up from the smoldering ruins of your position like a phoenix:

NOT {people being raped, people being tortured, people being burnt alive, people suffering hideously painful terminal diseases, and so on...} implies we would live in a world of dancing sunflowers, chirping bluebirds, and strawberry spiral lollipops.

Glorious effort! 😞

Originally posted by whodey
James has an interesting thing to say about praying for those who need food and clothes. Instead of only praying to God that they may be fed and clothed try giving them food and clothes yourself. He then goes on to say that faith without works is DEAD.

Also, we see a story in Jonah where God commands Jonah to go to the city of Ninevah to warn them about ...[text shortened]... anything be possible? The only limiting factor might be considered our unbelief in his power.

Right, so the woman who was raped and stabbed here in Seattle ought to have tried to convert her attacker. God has washed his hands of these mundane human atrocities. It's up to us to prevent these atrocities. If we can't, too bad, God can't be bothered to help one of his children when she is brutally attacked. That is your view?

Originally posted by Agerg
Ah the old binary defence: not (people being raped, people being tortured, people being burnt alive, people suffering hideously painful terminal diseases, and so on...) implies we would live in a world of dancing sunflowers, chirping bluebirds, and strawberry spiral lollipops. 😞

And the most ridiculous part of that argument is that the theists are already committed to the existence of a paradise (Heaven). So a world like that is not only possible, on their view, but eventually will be actual.

Originally posted by bbarr
Well, I hold the criminal responsible for the atrocity. But if a 'loving' passerby happened upon the scene, and could have easily prevented it but decided to walk away, we would think him morally in error; callous at best. God could have done any number of things to prevent this atrocity, but didn't. The same argument applies.

God could have done any number of things to prevent this atrocity, but didn't. The same argument applies.

The problem you pose is not an easy one to address. It is not easy to explain why very unfortunate things occured.

But I do know that God knows all of the things involved. You and I do not.

Suppose, these people were approached by the Holy Spirit many times about both praying for daily protection and behaving rightly? We do not know that they were not.

Suppose the heard year after year, the eloquent arguments of an atheist which turned their hearts away from God.

Maybe the persuasive arguments of skeptics year after year convinced the woman that there was no need to ask for protection each night from some imaginary god.

Maybe the rapist had also been turned away from occasions to repent and be delivered by exposure to eloquent, sophisticated, seemingly persuasive arguments of atheists that there was no God.

But history knows of many people who underwent tragadies but remained strong in faith and were able to help others navigate through such troubled waters.

I knew a Christian woman whose daughter was set on fire with gasoline by a crazed crack addict. She did not turn totally bitter against God because of this.

I think God has His saints undergo almost anything that people are able to undergo. The believers surely are not exempt from all kinds of human suffering. Then He will point to His people in the last day and tell some unbelievers:

"See, this person's situation was even WORSE than yours was. And they still trusted in Me."

IF God cannot be the God of women who were raped, than He cannot be much of a God.

IF He cannot be the God of criminals whose past lives were terrible, than He could not be a large enough God.

Do you think you are doing well to argue to turn men and woman away from trusting in God ? How do you know you will not also be held responsible for ideas you planted into people's minds ?

Originally posted by jaywill

God could have done any number of things to prevent this atrocity, but didn't. The same argument applies.

The problem you pose is not an easy one to address. It is not easy to explain why very unfortunate things occured.

But I do know that God knows all of the things involved. You and I do not.

Suppose, these people were appr you know you will not also be held responsible for ideas you planted into people's minds ?

So your view is that, all things considered, it must have been best for the woman to be raped and stabbed? That it was an absolutely essential part of God's ultimate plan, and that the only possible way He could realize his ultimate plan was to allow her to be raped and stabbed? That is your view?

Edit: I'll take my chances with Judgment, and if there is a God, I'll judge Him in turn. He could have saved that woman, and didn't. I hold myself to a higher standard than He holds Himself, apparently.

Originally posted by bbarr
Right, so the woman who was raped and stabbed here in Seattle ought to have tried to convert her attacker. God has washed his hands of these mundane human atrocities. It's up to us to prevent these atrocities. If we can't, too bad, God can't be bothered to help one of his children when she is brutally attacked. That is your view?

My only point here is that it is a complex issue for our infantile brains to comprehend with a myriad of confounding factors to consider. To blindly ignore our possible contribution/culpability, is a very tempting to say the least but a mistake.

For those of faith, we are told that bad things MUST happen to us. It is then, and only then, that our faith is tested. Job is a perfect example of this. Stick to your guns and don't flinch and things will be turned around in the end whether it be in this life or the next. Of course, not everyone sees the fruits of their labor and faith in this life, however, it will come.

In my own life, I can attest to this. I have had dreadful things happen to me personally that had been turned on its head and used for my good. That is what scripture tells us. God uses what was meant for our ill and turns it into good. Christ and his sacrifice is the shining example to this.

Originally posted by bbarr
So your view is that, all things considered, it must have been best for the woman to be raped and stabbed? That it was an absolutely essential part of God's ultimate plan, and that the only possible way He could realize his ultimate plan was to allow her to be raped and stabbed? That is your view?

So your view is that, all things considered, it must have been best for the woman to be raped and stabbed? That it was an absolutely essential part of God's ultimate plan, and that the only possible way He could realize his ultimate plan was to allow her to be raped and stabbed? That is your view?

That is not my view in that post. It is something else. However, I will comment on that.

Only God is capable of causing all things to work together for good TO THOSE who love Him and are called according to His purpose. He is able to do that.

That was not the particular point of that post. The point is that while you are busy condemning God you should also consider what part in it people like yourself could have played.

Do you think your words do not work on people?
Do you think your persuasions will effect no one's decisions concerning belief in God ?

You are eager to condemn God. Maybe some skeptic's opposition to godly repentance and faith was an enfluence on these people's lives.

But you have no sense of outrage about that possibility, do you ?

Originally posted by whodey
My only point here is that it is a complex issue for our infantile brains to comprehend with a myriad of confounding factors to consider. To blindly ignore our possible contribution/culpability, is a very tempting to say the least but a mistake.

For those of faith, we are told that bad things MUST happen to us. It is then, and only then, that our faith i ...[text shortened]... t for our ill and turns it into good. Christ and his sacrifice is the shining example to this.

Right. So, ultimately is will a turn out a good thing that this woman was raped and stabbed? We just don't have all the facts, or else we'd see that allowing this woman to be raped and stabbed was ultimately for the best. That is your view?

Originally posted by bbarr
Right. So, ultimately is will a turn out a good thing that this woman was raped and stabbed? We just don't have all the facts, or else we'd see that allowing this woman to be raped and stabbed was ultimately for the best. That is your view?

The actual act is not good. The hope for believers is what was used to do them harm will get a nice kick in the arse times two.

Originally posted by jaywill

So your view is that, all things considered, it must have been best for the woman to be raped and stabbed? That it was an absolutely essential part of God's ultimate plan, and that the only possible way He could realize his ultimate plan was to allow her to be raped and stabbed? That is your view?

That is not my view in that post. It ...[text shortened]... hese people's lives.

But you have no sense of outrage about that possibility, do you ?

I'm an atheist, and an ethicist. I would prefer people to believe true things, not put their faith in fantasy. That is why I teach moral philosophy, not theology. The part I play is teaching and writing about the importance of virtues like compassion, and attempting to convince people across traditions that there are core values we should endorse, and basic traits of character we should cultivate.

Why should I be outraged? If I had been there, I would have intervened. That's because I am not callous. God was there, and didn't intervene. That's because....?

Originally posted by whodey
The actual act is not good. The hope for believers is what was used to do them harm will get a nice kick in the arse times two.

Right. So the only possible way God could bring about whatever good He had in mind was to allow this woman to be raped and stabbed? This bad act was absolutely necessary to bring about some future good. Even though God is omnipotent, there was no other possible way He could realize His ultimate plan than by allowing this bad act. That is your view?

Originally posted by bbarr
Right. So the only possible way God could bring about whatever good He had in mind was to allow this woman to be raped and stabbed? This bad act was absolutely necessary to bring about some future good. Even though God is omnipotent, there was no other possible way He could realize His ultimate plan than by allowing this bad act. That is your view?

Not necessarily. What I'm saying is that God works through our faith and such faith will be tested. If we fail the test then faith brings forth nodda and all is lost.

Really trying to turn something bad into good is pretty much what we all try to do, is it not? However, not everyone can do it. As believers if we are doing God's will we are promised that we will have supernatural help in our endevours.

As for necessary suffering, I believe that when Christ was on his knees sweating blood asking the Father to spare him the agony of what lie before him, he had to go through with it. It was the only way.

Originally posted by bbarr
So your view is that, all things considered, it must have been best for the woman to be raped and stabbed? That it was an absolutely essential part of God's ultimate plan, and that the only possible way He could realize his ultimate plan was to allow her to be raped and stabbed? That is your view?

Edit: I'll take my chances with Judgment, and if there is ...[text shortened]... at woman, and didn't. I hold myself to a higher standard than He holds Himself, apparently.

I do not think you will have much luck judging God. Sorry.

Originally posted by Agerg
Ah good old binary reasoning rising up from the smoldering ruins of your position like a phoenix:

NOT {people being raped, people being tortured, people being burnt alive, people suffering hideously painful terminal diseases, and so on...} implies we would live in a world of dancing sunflowers, chirping bluebirds, and strawberry spiral lollipops.

Glorious effort! 😞

The implication is, if not for all the things you listed, there would be a new list of talking points. And on and on. You want Pleasantville. Not a horrible thing to wish for; just not reasonable.

(using your typical brand of "debate"😉

I see you didn't list "people having holes bored into their heads with a 1.5" auger bit, and sulfuric acid being poured into the hole while they are being sodomized by full-grown Texas steers." Presumably, you think this would be an act of love. How disgusting!

Ridiculous strawman, absurd-hypothetical "debate" tactic, isn't it. I agree.