01 Nov 11
Originally posted by Proper KnobThe woman plainly retorts that God has forbidden the fruit. She ignores such warnings via her own free will.
[b]The fall of mankind was when they divorced God from being their Lord.
The fall of mankind allegedly occurred when Eve was coerced into taking a bite of fruit by a talking snake. I think that sums it up.
As for the rest, i shall return tomorrow. I'm off to bed.[/b]
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01 Nov 11
Originally posted by whodeyIt's only relevant if god exists and has the attributes you are attributing to him.
God withdrew himself from mankind once mankind rejected him. Then when such a withdraw rouses objections from those who are suffering, what are we to think?
If God be the source of all love and life and we reject him, what is left?
Have you demonstrated gods existence?
02 Nov 11
Originally posted by whodeySo it is your view that the woman who was raped and stabbed essentially deserved what she got, because mankind rejected God? It is your view that God refusing to intervene in a preventable horror was morally justified, because of mankind's previous rejection of Him?
God withdrew himself from mankind once mankind rejected him. Then when such a withdraw rouses objections from those who are suffering, what are we to think?
If God be the source of all love and life and we reject him, what is left?
02 Nov 11
Originally posted by karoly aczeldalai lama isn't a qualified leader, ergo his existence is not a symptom of social insanity.
Yeah? could you elaborate a tad?
Do you believe there is such a thing as a qualified leader? (I'm thinking the Dalai Lama, perhaps he could be a living example of a leader who is on the side of sanity(?) )
02 Nov 11
Originally posted by bbarrAh yes... let's not miss the opportunity to use the ol' "woman repeatedly raped and stabbed" argument.
So it is your view that the woman who was raped and stabbed essentially deserved what she got, because mankind rejected God? It is your view that God refusing to intervene in a preventable horror was morally justified, because of mankind's previous rejection of Him?
I guess Pleasantville is the only acceptable reality if a loving Creator exists. Otherwise, the Creator must be evil and "insane" as another puts it.
Sheesh.
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02 Nov 11
Originally posted by sumydidhttp://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Problem_of_evil
Ah yes... let's not miss the opportunity to use the ol' "woman repeatedly raped and stabbed" argument.
I guess Pleasantville is the only acceptable reality if a loving Creator exists. Otherwise, the Creator must be evil and "insane" as another puts it.
Sheesh.
02 Nov 11
Originally posted by sumydidI have no idea what you mean by 'loving', since, on your view, it is consistent with being loving that you allow women to be raped and stabbed when you could easily prevent it. But that's typical theism; you just use these terms however you see fit.
Ah yes... let's not miss the opportunity to use the ol' "woman repeatedly raped and stabbed" argument.
I guess Pleasantville is the only acceptable reality if a loving Creator exists. Otherwise, the Creator must be evil and "insane" as another puts it.
Sheesh.
02 Nov 11
Originally posted by bbarrIf it wasn't women being raped and stabbed, it would be something else. It's just the most horrifying, ugly experience you can drum up in some desperate attempt to hold a 3rd party responsible.
I have no idea what you mean by 'loving', since, on your view, it is consistent with being loving that you allow women to be raped and stabbed when you could easily prevent it. But that's typical theism; you just use these terms however you see fit.
I suppose if God allowed someone to step in and blow the rapist's head off with a .357, you'd prosecute God for THAT horrible, cold-blooded assassination as well.
We could wipe out all sin in the world except for white lies, and then you'd hone in on that... so... what ev, dude.
02 Nov 11
Originally posted by sumydidWell, I hold the criminal responsible for the atrocity. But if a 'loving' passerby happened upon the scene, and could have easily prevented it but decided to walk away, we would think him morally in error; callous at best. God could have done any number of things to prevent this atrocity, but didn't. The same argument applies.
If it wasn't women being raped and stabbed, it would be something else. It's just the most horrifying, ugly experience you can drum up in some desperate attempt to hold a 3rd party responsible.
I suppose if God allowed someone to step in and blow the rapist's head off with a .357, you'd prosecute God for THAT horrible, cold-blooded assassination as well. ...[text shortened]... in the world except for white lies, and then you'd hone in on that... so... what ev, dude.
02 Nov 11
Originally posted by sumydidRight, and that is simply an admission that when you use terms like 'loving', 'merciful', 'just' etc. in reference to God, you're using them in non-standard ways. You want to use them in the standard way in order to drum up worshippers, but then use them in a totally different way when presented with the obvious paradoxes. It's just equivocation, and it's pretty transparent.
And I never said "it is consistent with loving" that someone would allow a woman to be raped and stabbed.
That line of reasoning tells the reader a lot less about what I think or who God is, and a lot more about what is going on in your mind.
02 Nov 11
4 edits
Originally posted by bbarrJames has an interesting thing to say about praying for those who need food and clothes. Instead of only praying to God that they may be fed and clothed try giving them food and clothes yourself. He then goes on to say that faith without works is DEAD.
I have no idea what you mean by 'loving', since, on your view, it is consistent with being loving that you allow women to be raped and stabbed when you could easily prevent it. But that's typical theism; you just use these terms however you see fit.
Also, we see a story in Jonah where God commands Jonah to go to the city of Ninevah to warn them about their wickedness and that they should repent least worst things come upon them. In the end they city repented and was spared, however, what if Jonah had not be persauded to do his part?
I also heard a story of a woman who was taken by someone to be raped. She then inexplicably began to witness to the man and to make a long story short the man repented and converted.
These stories make us mindful that God is not all controlling, rather, we are participants in this thing we call life. That is why faith is so vital. Faith is telling God he has permission to work in our life and then in the lives of those around us. In short, faith is our free will aligning itself with God. Armed with such faith and with an all powerful God, wouldn't anything be possible? The only limiting factor might be considered our unbelief in his power.
02 Nov 11
Originally posted by bbarrBut love has a very "dark" side, does it not?
Right, and that is simply an admission that when you use terms like 'loving', 'merciful', 'just' etc. in reference to God, you're using them in non-standard ways. You want to use them in the standard way in order to drum up worshippers, but then use them in a totally different way when presented with the obvious paradoxes. It's just equivocation, and it's pretty transparent.
For example, love opens us up to pain. If we did not ever love anyone, would we cry if they died? If we did not love, would we feel bad if they did not love us back? If we did not love, would we ever punish our children when they get out of line? Would we ever help those in need even though it may put us out financially or in terms of demands on our time?
02 Nov 11
Originally posted by googlefudgeThose that embrace God see him as loving and merciful. Those that reject God see him as vengeful and brutal.
It's only relevant if god exists and has the attributes you are attributing to him.
Have you demonstrated gods existence?
For the Christian, we have God in the flesh as our witness as to who God really is. Unfortunately for you, you have no real reason to accuse him of being evil because his witness is otherwise. At best, all you can do is say he was a "good" man, who was either misinterpreted or misguided.
As Christians, we are to demonstrate God's existence via our testimony and love for others.