KNOWING that God exists

Originally posted by @sonhouse
I feel it based on bible tales and events of the last thousand years which clearly shows the tales in the bible such as 'god' making the pharoahs heart harden and such, a god intervening directly in human existance and in favor of one group over another but fast forward a few thousand years and the non-interferance in such events as the presumably ten's of ...[text shortened]... hroats over thousands of years, they cannot ALL be right but they sure as hell can be all wrong.

The days of the prophets are over, because the human race is now at an impasse. No one would listen to a prophet these days anyways. We're now dying in our sins and sin is winning right now, and we're not going to get off this track until we hit the end of it. About the best we can now hope for is to "endure to the end", whenever that is.

Originally posted by @fmf
Surely his use of the word "know" is no different ~ no more or less legitimate ~ than your use of the word "know"?

Clearly, I think it is, your opinion on what you find incomprehensible notwithstanding.

Originally posted by @sonhouse
You can 'know' things like you are certain to be killed if you hit a cliff at 400 MPH.
I said I 'feel' the way religion is, I can't possibly 'know' it. To know with certainty would take a deity not ANY human. You KNOW you will be burned to death if you walk into a forest fire but you cannot know with certainty a god exists even if you think it has commun ...[text shortened]... owers we would consider god like, it seems highly unlikely but you can't be certain such exists.

The only time I've ever claimed that God saved me was from my own hand. Turns out he knew a lot more about me than I did at the time. Who'd've guessed? Now I know that people are cynical and they've been trained to not believe anything without proof and so often miss the glory of God. I do KNOW that my God exists, but there is no way on this green earth that I can convince you or anybody else. It used to be that a person's testimony was worth something. Not anymore, apparently.

Originally posted by @fmf
You said she was "on a higher spiritual plane than those dudes who seem to be unable to take a stance and stick with it." I find this surprising at best, and, more candidly, I find it risible. It makes you sound like a religionist. Surely curiosity, questioning, doubt, open mindedness, willingness to change one's mind etc. are in fact signs that one is "on a hi ...[text shortened]... ith it", as you put it? I am surprised by what you said; I wonder if it was just an angry blurt.

Because you are so full of your own opinion of me, often you're more than willing to eject your own "angry blurts" at me. Surely, you must not treat EVERYone who disagrees with you in this manner, yet you feel it's okay when they are old, or Christian, or a woman (or even better, two out of three). In fact you have made it your hobby to do exactly that. No matter how much you wish to project your feeling that doubt, or being wishy-washy, somehow makes you a better human being, it is just not so. Knowing what is true and what one believes in and having the backbone to stand up for what one believes is what drives one to a "higher spiritual plane". "Stubborn ideologues", such as you, I might add, usually aren't grounded enough in themselves to know just what it IS they believe in and therefore waste their lives chasing their own tail and usually just settle on not believing ANYthing, and end up spending what little time they have left making fun of others who know who they are and where they're going.

I know you weren't talking to me when you wrote this, but too bad. Maybe you could fashion your own "angry blurt" to make more fun of me. I've got better things to do than worry about it.

Originally posted by @suzianne
Because you are so full of your own opinion of me, often you're more than willing to eject your own "angry blurts" at me. Surely, you must not treat EVERYone who disagrees with you in this manner, yet you feel it's okay when they are old, or Christian, or a woman (or even better, two out of three). In fact you have made it your hobby to do exactly that. ...[text shortened]... our own "angry blurt" to make more fun of me. I've got better things to do than worry about it.

Well, other than that, he's a nice guy, right?🙂 BTW, did you ever get time to suss out my music on SC? It's kind of important to me for people to hear my compositions so they may think I am a real person not just a tirade maker on these forums🙂

Originally posted by @suzianne
The only time I've ever claimed that God saved me was from my own hand. Turns out he knew a lot more about me than I did at the time. Who'd've guessed? Now I know that people are cynical and they've been trained to not believe anything without proof and so often miss the glory of God. I do KNOW that my God exists, but there is no way on this green eart ...[text shortened]... dy else. It used to be that a person's testimony was worth something. Not anymore, apparently.

A testimony is not about claiming one KNOWS god exists. Is it?

Originally posted by @suzianne
Because you are so full of your own opinion of me, often you're more than willing to eject your own "angry blurts" at me. Surely, you must not treat EVERYone who disagrees with you in this manner, yet you feel it's okay when they are old, or Christian, or a woman (or even better, two out of three). In fact you have made it your hobby to do exactly that. ...[text shortened]... our own "angry blurt" to make more fun of me. I've got better things to do than worry about it.

How has anyone ~ let alone me ~ 'made fun' of you? What are you on about?

Originally posted by @suzianne
Clearly, I think it is, your opinion on what you find incomprehensible notwithstanding.

What is it you think is "incomprehensible" about the way you, along with many other theists, and many atheists who feel very certain about their beliefs, use the verb "know"? It's not "incomprehensible" at all. I'm not sure where you've got that notion from.

Originally posted by @suzianne
Knowing what is true and what one believes in and having the backbone to stand up for what one believes is what drives one to a "higher spiritual plane".

But surely "knowing" what is true, and "knowing" what you believe in are not the same thing, right? We can agree on that, right?

Originally posted by @suzianne
I do KNOW that my God exists, but there is no way on this green earth that I can convince you or anybody else.

But an atheist can use the word "know" in exactly the same way when he or she talks about "knowing" that god or gods do not exist. Replacing "believe" with "know" does not actually add any weight to the belief.

Originally posted by @fmf
But an atheist can use the word "know" in exactly the same way when he or she talks about "knowing" that god or gods do [b]not exist. Replacing "believe" with "know" does not actually add any weight to the belief.[/b]

Sonhouse "knows" that religion is the biggest scam in history. As he "knows" this (and tells us about 75 times a year), does that make my "belief" wrong?

I think it’s a different usage of “know.” Like when an athlete, in the so-called Zone says, I just “knew” I could make that play. It just isn’t the same usage as knowing because it’s logically necessary, or because I can show the empirical proof from historical evidence. If you asked the athlete before they were in that state, they might have said no, can’t know any such thing. It's an expression of faith. I think it’s a valid usage in context in everyday English, just not the same as some stricter logical/empirical usage.

Originally posted by @leil
I think it’s a valid usage in context in everyday English, just not the same as some stricter logical/empirical usage.

I think it is only 'valid', as you put it [I assume 'valid' means meaningful, effective when it comes to words] when it is used between people who share the same certainty about their beliefs.

But in an environment where people believe different things, it isn't so much 'valid' - with regard to what is "known" and not "known" - as it is a kind of certainty indicator: a way of signalling one's earnestness.

So it's more of preaching-to-the-choir word than a useful tool for discourse about spiritual and philosophical things.

Originally posted by @suzianne
No matter how much you wish to project your feeling that doubt, or being wishy-washy, somehow makes you a better human being, it is just not so. Knowing what is true and what one believes in and having the backbone to stand up for what one believes is what drives one to a "higher spiritual plane".

I believe that no god has revealed itself to humans. I stand up for this belief all the time here by engaging those who believe and assert that a god figure has revealed itself to them.

I have never claimed to be "a better human being" than other people here. This is something slightly toxic that you are seeking to introduce.

I don't see how my stance is "wishy-washy" at all. I cop quite a bit of flak for my beliefs from certain quarters, but I don't let it deter me. You used the word "backbone": what does it mean to you?

Originally posted by @suzianne
The days of the prophets are over, because the human race is now at an impasse. No one would listen to a prophet these days anyways. We're now dying in our sins and sin is winning right now, and we're not going to get off this track until we hit the end of it. About the best we can now hope for is to "endure to the end", whenever that is.

Spoken like a prophet. No evidence, no reasons, no facts, just assertions that are supposed to reveal the minds of the gods.