Originally posted by Rajk999In Matthew 25 -
LOL .. so you are fully COCKED ! ..😀
I think everybody know exactly who twists what Christ says and it aint me. In fact people sometimes accuse me of taking what Christ says too literally. You however like to add .. eg
Christ said 'Eternal punishment'
Jaywill said 'NOOOOO... its Eternal Suffering".
1.) Is the nature of the fire the same as the nature of the punishment ?
Both are discribed as "eternal" (compare verse 41 to 46).
Are they the same in this respect?
2.) Is to be in fire a suffering ?
Copied by permission from G. Miller.
The "Pattern Identification" issue. If one compares the OT attributes, titles, actions, and commitments of YHWH to those of Jesus in the NT, a distinct pattern of identify emerges. It is not just a matter of a few coincidences, but of a massive amount of data, If Jesus were not God, this massive correlation of OT-NT images would make no sense. The fact that no NT writer probably saw ALL of this (although Paul saw much of it apparently from his argumentation-scenes in Acts) suggests to me that God must have 'built this into' the fabric of the revealed message--to make sure we didn't miss it. Let's look at a number of these--just to get a feel for the immensity of the data.
First and the Last
YHWH:" "This is what the LORD says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God. " (Is 44.6 )
Jesus:" When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades. " (Rev 1.17,18 )
Eternal
YHWH:" Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God. " (Ps 90.2)
Jesus:" This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. " (2 Tim 1.9 )
Almighty
YHWH:" When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, "I am God Almighty; walk before me and be blameless. " (Gen 17.1)
Jesus:" I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty. " (Rev 1.8 )
God, the Holy One
YHWH:" For I am the LORD, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior; " (Is 43.3)
Jesus:" You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. " (Acts 3.14; Ps 16.10; Mark 1.24; )
All things made by Him
YHWH:"This is what the LORD says -- your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself, " (Is 44.24)
Jesus:" Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. " and " For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him." (Jn 1.3; Col 1.16)
King of kings, Lord of Lords
YHWH:" which God will bring about in his own time -- God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, " (I Tim 6.15)
Jesus:" his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. " (Rev 19.13f )
Everlasting King
YHWH:" Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and your dominion endures through all generations. " (Ps 145.13)
Jesus:" "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshipped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. " (Dan 7.13 )
Lord of All
YHWH:" The LORD has established his throne in heaven, and his kingdom rules over all. " (Ps 103.19)
Jesus:" You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. " (Acts 10.36 )
Renders acc. to works
YHWH:" and that you, O Lord, are loving. Surely you will reward each person according to what he has done. " (Ps 62.12)
Jesus:" Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. " (Rev 22.12 )
Hope in Him
YHWH:" But now, Lord, what do I look for? My hope is in you. " (Ps 39.7; Jer 17.7)
Jesus:" Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope " and " To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory." (I Tim 1.1; Col 1.27 )
Gathers Israel under wings/feathers
YHWH:" He will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart. " (Ps 91.4)
Jesus:" O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. " (Mt 23.37 )
Savior
YHWH:" and at his appointed season he brought his word to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior " and " I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior. 12 I have revealed and saved and proclaimed -- I, and not some foreign god among you." (Tit 1.3--with Is 43.11!)
Jesus:"Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior. " (Tit 1.4; 2.10-13; 3:4-6 )
overcomes universal death
YHWH:" On this mountain he will destroy the shroud that enfolds all peoples, the sheet that covers all nations; 8 he will swallow up death forever. The Sovereign LORD will wipe away the tears from all faces; he will remove the disgrace of his people from all the earth. The LORD has spoken. " (Is 25.7f)
Jesus:" but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. " (2 Tim 1.10 )
The only God
YHWH:" And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. 22 "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. " (Is 45.21ff)
Jesus:" In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. " and " Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, " (Jn 1.1; Phil 2.6 et. al.)
Pours out the Holy Spirit
YHWH:" And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. 29 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days. " (Joel 2.28)
Jesus:" Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear." and " But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you." (Act 2.33; Jn 16.7)
Saves us by grace
YHWH:" For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. " (Tit 2.11)
Jesus:" We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are. " (Acts 15.11 )
All in all
YHWH:" When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. " (I Cor 15.28)
Jesus:" which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way." and " Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all."(Eph 1.23; Col 3.11 )
to be glorified forever
YHWH:" according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. " (Gal 1.4-5)
Jesus:" But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! " (2 Pet 3.18 and Heb 13.21 )
dominion forever
YHWH:" And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast. 11 To him be the power for ever and ever. Amen. " (I Pet 5.10-11)
Jesus:" To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father -- to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen. " (Rev 1.5,6 )
To be a messenger
YHWH:" A voice of one calling: "In the desert prepare the way for the LORD; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God. 4 Every valley shall be raised up, every mountain and hill made low; the rough ground shall become level, the rugged places a plain. 5 And the glory of the LORD will be revealed, and all mankind together will see it. " (Is 40.3)
Jesus:" In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea 2 and saying, 'Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.' 3 This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah: 'A voice of one calling in the desert, 'Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him. " (Mt 3.2f)
Stone of Stumbling
YHWH:" The LORD Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy, he is the one you are to fear, he is the one you are to dread, 14 and he will be a sanctuary; but for both houses of Israel he will be a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall. " (Is 8.13,14)
Jesus:" Now to you who believe, this stone ...
cont.
Stone of Stumbling
YHWH:" The LORD Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy, he is the one you are to fear, he is the one you are to dread, 14 and he will be a sanctuary; but for both houses of Israel he will be a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall. " (Is 8.13,14)
Jesus:" Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, 'The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone,' 8 and, 'A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.' " (I Pet 2.7,8 )
Pierced
YHWH:" "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, " (Zech 12.10)
Jesus:" and, as another scripture says, "They will look on the one they have pierced." " (Jn 19.37 )
My eyes have seen YHWH
YHWH:" 'Woe to me!' I cried. 'I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty.' " (Is 6.5)
Jesus:" Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him. " (Jn 12.41 )
Every tongue shall confess...
YHWH:" By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. 24 They will say of me, `In the LORD alone are righteousness and strength.'" " (Is 45.23)
Jesus:" God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. " (Philp 2.9f; Rom 14.10-11 )
Exclusive knowledge of deity
YHWH:" No one knows the Son except the Father... " (Mt 11.27; John 10.15)
Jesus:"... and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. " (Mt 11.27; Jn 10.15 )
One might dispute one or two of these, or assign different degrees of strength to these, but the overall impact is powerful--what character, actions, powers, status could be ascribed to God in the OT could and should be also ascribed to the Son of God in the NT.
If Jesus were not God, this massive correlation of OT-NT images would make no sense,
the above is nonsense!, Christ was the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. (colossians 1:15) when one sees ones image in a mirror it is perfectly reflected is it not. but it is not the reality itself, it is a reflection or an image. when one sees a little baby, people are want to say, oh, he is the image of his father, it does not mean that he is his father, and lastly the most damning of all evidence, the divine name, tertragrammaton ,YHWH, or JHWH, or Jehovah, used exclusively for the Almighty!
plus the FACT, yes dear reader the FACT, that Christ himself never gave a seizure that he should be equal to God
Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. - Philipians 2:5,6
Originally posted by robbie carrobie=================================
If Jesus were not God, this massive correlation of OT-NT images would make no sense,
the above is nonsense!, Christ was the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. (colossians 1:15) when one sees ones image in a mirror it is perfectly reflected is it not. but it is not the reality itself, it is a reflection or an image. when ...[text shortened]... ve no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. - Philipians 2:5,6[/b]
Christ was the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. (colossians 1:15) when one sees ones image in a mirror it is perfectly reflected is it not. but it is not the reality itself, it is a reflection or an image.
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Christ says that He is the reality:
"Jesus said to him, I am the way and the reality and the life, no one comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6)
It is sadly possible that we could be those "who have eyes to see but see not." The list of comparisons should have spoken for themselves.
To the Christians Paul writes that we are made full in Him (Christ) (Col.2:10) and in Him are "all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge hidden" (Col. 2:3)
And in Christ all the fullness was pleased to dwell (Col.1:19). The fullness was PLEASED. And "ALL THE FULNESS WAS PLEASED" to dwell in the God-man Jesus of Nazareth.
I think the list of comparisons was devastating to the cause of Arianism. And when this One was incarnated, because MAN is a created item in God's creation, He immediately made Himself "the Firstborn of all creation" .
Of all created items in the whole of time and eternity and in all the universe NONE was more preeminent than the man Jesus. For He alone was God as a man.
Firstborn of all creation does not mean that Jesus was an angelic inferior other god who at one time was not. And the "Almighty" is the "Alpha and the Omega" (Rev. 1:8). And Jesus put His glorfied and resurrected human hand upon John and proclaimed:
"Do not fear, I am the First and the Last and the living One; and I became dead, and behold, I am living forever and ever ..." (Rev. 1:17)
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when one sees a little baby, people are want to say, oh, he is the image of his father, it does not mean that he is his father, and lastly the most damning of all evidence, the divine name, tertragrammaton ,YHWH, or JHWH, or Jehovah, used exclusively for the Almighty!
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These objections are not strong enough to undo the total effect of the 25 or so comparisons which I listed above of YHWH and Jesus.
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plus the FACT, yes dear reader the FACT, that Christ himself never gave a seizure that he should be equal to God
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He was equal with God then. And He humbled Himself. That is the point of the Philippian passage.
This matter is not new to the Bible only with the New Testament. The Angel of Jehovah is sometimes used interchangeably with Jehovah in the OT.
For example:
"And the Angel of Jehovah appeared to him [Moses] in a flame of fire out of the midst of a thornbush ... when Jehovah saw that he had turned aside to look, God called to him out of the midst of the thornbush ... I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God." (See Exodus 3:2-6)
The Angel of Jehovah appeared and Moses was afraid to look upon God who spoke to him out of the thornbush as Jehovah the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
The Messenger (or Angel) of Jehovah and Jehovah are used to signify each other here and in some other places in the Old Testament.
And since the Angel of Jehovah told Manoah that Monoah should know that His name is Wonderful, that child born and called Wonderful (Isa. 9:6) in Isaiah is that same mysterious One. And upon realizing that he had seen the Angel of Jehovah what did Monoah say to his wife?
"And Monoah said to his wife, We will surely die, for we have seen GOD." (Judges 13:22)
This proves that the Angel of Jehovah can be Jehovah God. And the Son given can be the Eternal Father and the child born can be the Mighty God.
We are commanded to believe and receive Christ. We are not required to be able to explain how God sent God.
Originally posted by epiphinehasThe Deity of Christ has been orthodox Christian belief since the time of Paul, circa 50 A. D. Throughout the ante-Nicene Church period, between 100 A. D. and 320 A. D., the accepted belief among Christians of every nation was that Christ, The Word, was both God and man. This was not a belief introduced in the fourth or fifth century by any known council, but a belief held by the earliest known church (and is still held to be orthodox by the majority of believing Christians to this very day). What is arrogant is thinking that the vast majority of Christians, from the earliest church down through the last two thousand years, were the ones who have got it all wrong, and further, basing that supposition on the ignorance of any and all countervailing evidence.
Like Robbie you have found a way to completely avoid responding to my post. Yes, you have literally responded, in that you've written something in response, but you still left the valid points I made regarding how we are to honor Christ, untouched - as if you chose to ignore them altogether. With all due respect, if you don't start addressing th norance of any and all countervailing evidence.
That is arrogance.
This is not quite accurate. Although Constantine may still have been a pagan at the time of the First Council of Nicaea (not being baptized until shortly before his death, I believe), he called the council of Christian bishops because the Christological controversies—notably between Arius and Athanasius—were causing sometimes violent disturbances in the eastern empire. These Christological controversies were alive and well into the 4th century. And yes, Constantine himself did declare the winners.
The doctrine of hypostatic union was not set until the Council of Chalcedon in 451, which caused the separation of the “orthodox” Chalcedonian churches from the monophysite churches, such as the Syrian and Coptic churches.
An interesting read on all this is John Meyendorff’s Christ in Eastern Christian Thought—although the title is something of a misnomer, since Meyendorff really means, ultimately, “Eastern Orthodox” thought; as noted there are non-Chalcedonian (non-trinitarian) eastern churches. Nevertheless, Meyendorff does not shie away from detailed examination of the historical and controversial progression to Nicaea and Chalcedon.
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With that said, this has been a well-argued thread (aside from some gratuitous insult-hurling). I have read and learned. Kudos to all on that score.
Originally posted by vistesd=====================================
[b]The Deity of Christ has been orthodox Christian belief since the time of Paul, circa 50 A. D. Throughout the ante-Nicene Church period, between 100 A. D. and 320 A. D., the accepted belief among Christians of every nation was that Christ, The Word, was both God and man. This was not a belief introduced in the fourth or fifth century by any known council, ...[text shortened]... ide from some gratuitous insult-hurling). I have read and learned. Kudos to all on that score.
he called the council of Christian bishops because the Christological controversies—notably between Arius and Athanasius—were causing sometimes violent disturbances in the eastern empire. These Christological controversies were alive and well into the 4th century. And yes, Constantine himself did declare the winners.
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I think that this is the point. Something new was being introduced as the tradition to be held as preeminent.
Constantine was interested in a Empire wide Church for political purposes. I don't think he cared that much who was the winner, but that there would be harmony in his Empire wide official religion.
The vigorious dispute between Arius and those defending the Deity of Jesus Christ is evidence that they were wary of the introduction into the orthodox faith of something incorrect.
They had long believed one way and now Arius was introducing something new to be the prevailing belief - that Jesus was a created angelic being and not God incarnate (as taught by the Gospel of John ).
And these ancient Christian brothers were spot on to be vigilant to defend what the New Testament taught. And that regardless of their other faults.
Athanasius is the main one, IMO, that Christians need to hear in that debate.
Amyway it is not creeds, councils, or traditions which are most important but what is written in the Bible should have the most important place.
Originally posted by jaywillWell they are all the Truth and since the are all the Truth then why should one be over the others can you have something more true than Truth? Sometimes they just interpret the Bible and sometimes they deal with an issue that really isn't even in the Bible.
[b]=====================================
he called the council of Christian bishops because the Christological controversies—notably between Arius and Athanasius—were causing sometimes violent disturbances in the eastern empire. These Christological controversies were alive and well into the 4th century. And yes, Constantine himself did declare the wi ...[text shortened]... which are most important but what is written in the Bible should have the most important place.
Originally posted by karoly aczelThen there would have to be more than one God.
Thats crazy. Its also dangerous.Its like another thread that went 'all roads lead to heaven but only Jesus holds the key'. Do you really believe that? Why cant christians believe that there may be other dieties that can help people with their spirituality?
Originally posted by karoly aczelDeity; the creator and supreme being (in a monotheistic religion such as Christianity).
So for more dieties there has to be more Gods? Why? I don't follow your reasoning. Or is there no reasoning because its written in the bible and therefore beyond criticism?
Yes don't you Believe in the Bible.