Life on other planets

Originally posted by jaywill
Then I guess you would have had a Jurassic ark.

Wocka wocka wocka!

Originally posted by sumydid
Just because different factions within Christianity contradict one another doesn't mean they all have it wrong. That argument is entirely illogical.

You're correct that if 2 parties contradict one another, 1 must be wrong. But that doesn't mean both are incorrect.

You seem to believe that for one to be Christian they must altogether reject science; e ...[text shortened]... theory can remain a scientist even if he believes that God caused the big bang.

The Universe cannot be created as Genisis as one christian groups are saying, claiming that they are right by the name of god, and in the same time another group of christian saying that the BigBang is the correct way the Universe came into being, by the name of god, this means that one group of christian falsely say they have the Truth in the name of god.

Thwo grops saying mutually contradicting things cannot be both true, *that's* illogical.

What I believe is that the Universe, with the BigBang, Evolution, and all other laws of science, very well can be the creation of god, and the bible is only what they thought thousands of years ago, not true today when we know so very much more. Denying modern science is to reject the creation of god.

What what's true and what's not? Why not ask him directly? They say the god hears prayers, an answers them, why is he silent? Because he doesn't care? Or doesn't exist?

Originally posted by FabianFnas
The Universe cannot be created as Genisis as one christian groups are saying, claiming that they are right by the name of god, and in the same time another group of christian saying that the BigBang is the correct way the Universe came into being, by the name of god, this means that one group of christian falsely say they have the Truth in the name of god ears prayers, an answers them, why is he silent? Because he doesn't care? Or doesn't exist?

The Universe cannot be created as Genisis as one christian groups are saying, claiming that they are right by the name of god, and in the same time another group of christian saying that the BigBang is the correct way the Universe came into being, by the name of god, this means that one group of christian falsely say they have the Truth in the name of god.

Again, you are correct to say any two groups that make a claim that contradicts one another, can't both be right. I would go along with you as well if you want to argue that at least some of the Christians have got something wrong.

However when it comes to the big bang, both Christian groups you spoke of, can be correct.


Thwo grops saying mutually contradicting things cannot be both true, *that's* illogical.

Yes, and to say they all have it wrong is illogical.



What I believe is that the Universe, with the BigBang, Evolution, and all other laws of science, very well can be the creation of god, and the bible is only what they thought thousands of years ago, not true today when we know so very much more.

Great! We agree on the first part. But to say that science outright contradicts the bible today and that the bible is wrong, is thus far a matter of opinion.

If you think about what little mankind really knows about the universe it's sort of laughable, isn't it? Whether we take a hubble telescope and look out word or take powerful microscopes and look "inward," either way the discoveries are infinite and established science is always in danger of being turned on its ear. I just watched a program on the Hubble telescope and all the talk was about black holes and dark matter. We're just barely scratching the surface with all this stuff.


Denying modern science is to reject the creation of god.

How so?


What what's true and what's not? Why not ask him directly? They say the god hears prayers, an answers them, why is he silent? Because he doesn't care? Or doesn't exist?
Or maybe He focuses on the prayers and questions that are relevant and comprehensible. How could God satisfactorily answer if I asked Him in a prayer, "How did all this come into existence?" He'd have to write a volume of books and hand them to me. And then I would be declared a lunatic that made it all up. So why bother?

Originally posted by sumydid
The Universe cannot be created as Genisis as one christian groups are saying, claiming that they are right by the name of god, and in the same time another group of christian saying that the BigBang is the correct way the Universe came into being, by the name of god, this means that one group of christian falsely say they have the Truth in the name of god o me. And then I would be declared a lunatic that made it all up. So why bother?

If both two groups say that they have firsthand info from god himself, and one is wrong, then who is to trust? Why not ask Him and show the answer, then one has to rething. But who? Why not settle this debate once and for all? Easy done: Ask Him!

Of course the Genisis is wrong. We have to interprete the words very generously to claim the Genisis is right. Not only the age but also the order of wich the separate things are created. Plus that there are different stories about it. Chapter one and chapter two contradicts, not only in details.

Denying evolution is to deny the greatest achievement of the creation: Self organizing matter into life!

Why bother? Why bother??? God has just to say, "Trust the scientists, they are on the right track, the Genisis was only nice words to those who didn't knew much." Or "Scientists are all wrong, Genisis was right in the letter!" No need for libraries of books. No problems for god to explain what he thinks is neccesary and sufficient. If he just hinted that Genesis is obsolete and science is the solution, I would be satisfied. He doesn't, he doesn't care, he (?) doesn't exist?

Scientists bother. They create new theories according to observations. The evolve their theories to explain more and more. That's the right way to go.
Not dogma, not literal blind beliefs. God gave us curiosity, then why not use it?

I guess you missed the point of "why bother." Why should God feel compelled to explain it all... how could He answer it where no one on Earth had any questions anymore... and how, in the end, does it mean a hill of beans if we do get the answer? Great, so God types out 500 million pages of text to explain everything for me. Then I die. Now, how did it help me that He did that? God said that of all things, love is the most important. Obviously His agenda doesn't include laboriously creating a 20,000 book volume explaining creation... and I suspect that being the omniscient Almighty, He's probably bright enough to conclude that such a volume would only spawn more questions from us anyway.

Originally posted by sumydid
I guess you missed the point of "why bother." Why should God feel compelled to explain it all... how could He answer it where no one on Earth had any questions anymore... and how, in the end, does it mean a hill of beans if we do get the answer? Great, so God types out 500 million pages of text to explain everything for me. Then I die. Now, how di ...[text shortened]... bright enough to conclude that such a volume would only spawn more questions from us anyway.

Okay, you say that god perhaps hears parayers, but doesn't care? Doesn't care to respond? So why bother pray at the first time? Can just as well pray to any stone, or trea or whatever. Same result anyway.

That's why I like science better: Scientists doesn't settle with the answer "Who cares?" They go on, observe, experimenting, striving to find answer. And when a question is put to the nater in the right way, the nature responds. Always, never fail.

I say that it means a lot if we really get answers from somene or something that actually has the answer. Until god answers, then people will continute to lie, deciever, even kill and start wars, because they 'know' that they have the Ultimate Truth about things, they know that they have (an unasnwering) god behind them. If god only said, for once, that "I'm not behind killing" so people actually can do right, and not guessing about the Truth.

If I say that god is a red baloon, who can say anything against it? We don't know, god doesn't sayanything, som my proposal can actually be the Eternal Truth: God is a red baloon. Creepy? Yes, as people who actually say that they have the Ultimate Truth, because god has told them (!) and want the rest of us to believe the same thing, without evidence or anything. God doesn't care, so why would we?

God doesn't care, or doesn't exist. Read the bible, I read "Lord of the Rings" (another story book), and I am as much happy as anyone else.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
If both two groups say that they have firsthand info from god himself, and one is wrong, then who is to trust? Why not ask Him and show the answer, then one has to rething. But who? Why not settle this debate once and for all? Easy done: Ask Him!

Of course the Genisis is wrong. We have to interprete the words very generously to claim the Genisis is rig go.
Not dogma, not literal blind beliefs. God gave us curiosity, then why not use it?

I was watching a science program the other day about how the solar system evolved and for the most part, they were clueless. For example, the giant planets of Uranas and Neptune were simply in the wrong place and orbit to have evolved where they sit now. My point being, sometimes science contradicts itself in regards to how things are compared to how things should be according to their understanding. Contradictions that appear to be contradictions may only be contradictions in our own limited finite minds.

Now in terms of God explaining all this, I suppose my answer would be to seek the answer just as Christ once said, "Seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened to you". This involves science as well as theology but it must be tackled using both if God is included in the mix. One such man is a scientist by the name of Gerald Schroeder. He wrote a book called, "Genesis and the Big Bang". I think through his studies in both science and theology, alot has been revealed to him.

Of course, you would probably scoff at the findings because you have no use for theology. Unfortunatly, many in the religious side of things have no use for science either. As a result, what you have is a shouting match betoween theology and science and who have very little regard for one another. Such people, in my opinion, have very little chance at finding the truth because I believe both science and Genesis have truth in them that can reveal what actrually happened.

Originally posted by whodey
I was watching a science program the other day about how the solar system evolved and for the most part, they were clueless. For example, the giant planets of Uranas and Neptune were simply in the wrong place and orbit to have evolved where they sit now. My point being, sometimes science contradicts itself in regards to how things are compared to how things ...[text shortened]... believe both science and Genesis have truth in them that can reveal what actrually happened.

Science isn't about knowing everything, science is about to collect knowledge. What we know isn't the problem, what is in the frings what we know, or where we begin to know thins, are the most interesting.

About Neptune or Uranus, it's of course not known why they re exactly where they are. So? We live in a chaotic planetary system. The planets aren't 'born' where they are, with orbital elements exactly what they are now. So? I don't find this at all strange. It would have been far stranger if we knew the truth already and, voilá, that's what what we find! That's why Genisis is dead wrong.

If we want to see Genisis as the Truth, we have a lot of troubles. Why? Because observational evidence don't match the word of the Genisis. therefore, creationism and Genisis isn't science. It's just religion, nothing more. believe it if you want, but at the very moment you want to explain it scientifically, you are out on thin ice.

Pray to god and listen what he has to tell you about it. Record it in a tape recorder, and send the tape to some Science Magazines, and you are a famous man for a while. But, surprise, surprise, that cannot be done, because god doesn't care.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Science isn't about knowing everything, science is about to collect knowledge. What we know isn't the problem, what is in the frings what we know, or where we begin to know thins, are the most interesting.

About Neptune or Uranus, it's of course not known why they re exactly where they are. So? We live in a chaotic planetary system. The planets aren't ...[text shortened]... or a while. But, surprise, surprise, that cannot be done, because god doesn't care.

maybe god is quiet because (s)he is testing your faith

Originally posted by karoly aczel
maybe god is quiet because (s)he is testing your faith

Then he is quiet to testing everyones faith. Or he just isn't...

Originally posted by FabianFnas
[b]Science isn't about knowing everything,

And religion is? Of course, for some this is what it is all about, but if so, why the walk of faith?

Originally posted by FabianFnas
[.

About Neptune or Uranus, it's of course not known why they re exactly where they are. So? We live in a chaotic planetary system. The planets aren't 'born' where they are, with orbital elements exactly what they are now. So? I don't find this at all strange. It would have been far stranger if we knew the truth already and, voilá, that's what what we find! That's why Genisis is dead wrong.

My point is, is that we believe Uranus and Neptune to exist because we can detect them via telescopes and other astrological measurments, therefore, we simply agree that they are there even though science in some ways protest their existence. Likewise, the believer has faith that the Bible is a source of truth, even though at times science protests this existence.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
If we want to see Genisis as the Truth, we have a lot of troubles. Why? Because observational evidence don't match the word of the Genisis. therefore, creationism and Genisis isn't science. It's just religion, nothing more. believe it if you want, but at the very moment you want to explain it scientifically, you are out on thin ice.

I never said that Genesis was science. The Bible is about the immaterial effecting the material world. Science is only concerned with the material world. Having said that, the theology of the bible is that the source of the material world and everything that effects it is governed by the immaterial. So why then would it be focused on science and the material world?

Now before you say that there is no evidence of the immaterial world, I would simply point you to the belief that God is love. Love exists, even though it is not measurable. According to science, it really does not exist at all other than to say it is a collection of complex chemical reactions in the brain. However, its relevance superceedes that of science in terms of importance to us in our lives. If so, why then would the Bible be concerned with issues that are secondary to our existence? For me, love is what connects us to the spiritual world and is the ONLY thing that really exists.

Having said that, I would also contend that religion and science are not mutually exclusive because at some points they overlap. For example, you could argue that law has nothing to do with art but you would be wrong. If you don't belive me, just try to replicate anothers peice of art for commercial use without the consent of the artist who created it. Although these two fields of study are distinctly different, at times they do interact and are relavent to each other.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
maybe god is quiet because (s)he is testing your faith

God desires us to seek him, however, if you are after ALL the answers, you will never get them because we are simply not able to know everything. If we could, we would be God. Having said that, that does not mean our knowledge cannot increase when we pursue to know certain things. That applies to both the world of science and theology. There are answers out there we can know but only if we pursue them.

Originally posted by whodey
I never said that Genesis was science.

Creationists usually do. If you don't, then you think creationism is religion, and on that we totally agree.

Science and religion never mix, therefore there are religious domains, and there are scientific domains, and never meet the two. So if you believe in creationism of religious reasons, I have no problem with that.