1. Cape Town
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    28 Jun '10 15:56
    Originally posted by josephw
    But where did that conception of God come from? Certainly we don't generate that conception from within ourselves. We don't create our own conception of God do we? Some do.
    My point is simple. If we know anything about God, it is because God reveals it to us. Any knowledge we have about who and what God is comes from God.
    But what you know about a genuine entity called God and your conception of God are two different things, yet you try very hard to equate them. That is your whole 'point' and a flawed one. You don't even believe it yourself (hence the 'some do' comment).

    It would be far more accurate to say:
    If God exists, what you know about him that is true, probably comes from him. What you think you know about him that is false, you either generated yourself, or got from other people. Whether to call you delusional as a result is another matter. If having some false beliefs is enough to be labeled delusional then we are probably all delusional.
  2. Subscriberjosephw
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    28 Jun '10 16:15
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    But what you know about a genuine entity called God and your conception of God are two different things, yet you try very hard to equate them. That is your whole 'point' and a flawed one. You don't even believe it yourself (hence the 'some do' comment).

    It would be far more accurate to say:
    If God exists, what you know about him that is true, probably ...[text shortened]... some false beliefs is enough to be labeled delusional then we are probably all delusional.
    My premise is simple.

    Knowledge of God comes from God. If there be a God.

    A conception of God, not from God, is a delusion.


    The question is, if there be a God, is how do we know that the knowledge(or conception) of God we have came from God?

    By faith. A spiritual awakening that precludes contradiction. One that is verified only by personal experience with God Himself.

    Arguably a profound idea that makes one's skin crawl with doubt.
  3. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    28 Jun '10 17:141 edit
    Originally posted by Blackamp

    also, many religious thinkers have held that God is essentially ineffable, and outstrips human concepts. to say something along the lines like 'God loves', for example, is inadequate. however, it is the best we can do, given the limitation of human concepts / language.

    i suppose one way to approach the question would be to answer a series of sub-questions ...[text shortened]... ieve that God is a trinity?

    Do you believe that God prohibits the eating of pork?

    and so on.
    "also, many religious thinkers have held that God is essentially ineffable, and outstrips human concepts. to say something along the lines like 'God loves', for example, is inadequate. however, it is the best we can do, given the limitation of human concepts / language."

    Yes, 'paronomasia' (language of accommodation) is frequently employed in both the OT and NT.


    "Do you believe that God is a trinity?"

    Yes, three distinct persons with identical attributes/essence and distinctly different roles.



    Note: Yes, also, in answer to the rest of the questions you pose (though past tense,

    within a previous dispensation, with regard to the codex dietary pork prohibition).




    .........................................................
  4. Hmmm . . .
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    28 Jun '10 18:141 edit
    A parable:

    Suppose—

    Reality is like a huge gem, so large that no one can perceive more than a few small facets. [Some of those who perceive have left accounts of what they perceived; some of these accounts are called revelation (either by those who produced them, or those who came after). Some of these revelations claim to be a revealing by the very light itself; in some sense, they might be right.] The light that illuminates all the facets is generated by the gem itself. Some of the facets render the light into what for us is the visible spectrum; others into “colors” that we cannot see.

    Some people perceive only the facets in which the light is rendered blue. Others perceive only the facets in which the light is rendered red. [For the illustration here, we can ignore detailed speculation about whatever the perceptual limitations may be that allows each to perceive just that color.] Since the “truth” cannot be both red and green at the same time, one exclusivist religion develops based on the truth-claim that ultimate reality (e.g., “god” ) is blue; another develops based on the truth-claim that ultimate reality is red.

    Representatives of the two religions argue endlessly over “the truth”, with lots of accusations about why the others are so “blind” (i.e., the above-mentioned perceptual limitations). Very complex theologies develop for each colored view. Salvation (however each group may define that) depends upon the ability to perceive—or at least “believe”— the only one true color. Some claim that one must believe before one can perceive; but, in any event, only belief in the “one true color” counts.

    Some also argue that the light must originate from outside the gem; others argue, from the inside. [A bit of a cheat, perhaps, for me to stipulate that in the first paragraph…]

    Along comes the crazy Zennist (or Advaita Vedantist, or Taoist) who says: “Well, you know, originally the light is clear. Or, the light encompasses the entire spectrum, and is not itself just one or a few of the colors. So, in a sense you are all correct; in a sense you are all wrong. But what you are ultimately worshipping might be the limits of your own perceptions, the limits of your own ability to perceive and to understand. I, too, am limited. There are colors that I cannot see. Perhaps that is because we, too, are made of the same light that perceives other manifestations of that light; perhaps our perception is itself colored, a refraction caused by the nature of our consciousness in addition to the refractions around us. Perhaps our mind too is like a prism. I also notice that others seem to see colors that I cannot.

    “But, if reality is in any way like my own mind, then I realize that reality manifests in many colors, and that the ground of those manifestations embraces all of them. (There also may be cases of delusion, where what we think we perceive we actually do not; but that’s another story.) That is what I mean by saying that, ultimately, the one light is clear.”

    Some laugh at such nonsense. Others simply chase her away. Others try to burn her at the stake.

    End of the parable, which is, after all, only a parable.

    _________________________________________________________

    Clear light refracted through a prism,
    into an array of dancing hues:

    then the arguments begin
    on what are the only true colors…

    __________________________________________________________

    “Some say Allah, some say Ram.
    Then they kill each other…”

    —Kabir
  5. Cape Town
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    28 Jun '10 18:38
    Originally posted by josephw
    The question is, if there be a God, is how do we know that the knowledge(or conception) of God we have came from God?

    By faith. A spiritual awakening that precludes contradiction.
    In other words - deliberate self delusion.

    One that is verified only by personal experience with God Himself.
    Arguably a profound idea that makes one's skin crawl with doubt.

    But since every single person I have met who claims to have personal knowledge of God through such means has a different conception of God, the only possible conclusion is that all of them (but one possibly) are deluded.
    What I find interesting, is that the delusion is so often deliberate.
  6. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    28 Jun '10 23:231 edit
    Originally posted by vishvahetu
    to SwissGambit

    Dont forget where talking about the omnipresent, Omniscient and Omnipotent god, not you and your mates.

    vishva
    I am talking about time and the universe. Those are real to me. I can't say the same for your God.

    Even if it IS possible to be outside time, we have no clue how to do it ourselves. [We ARE limited to the perspective of ourselves and our mates, since we can't call god down to explain what it's like!] Thus, we can only conjecture what it is like to be outside time, if it is even possible.

    The worst part is when people leapfrog these reasonable doubts and start sounding in off with amazing certainty about what it's like to be outside time. How am I to even have a reasonable discussion on the topic with such people? I'm still stuck at the starting gate, and they're running for the finish line.
  7. Standard memberDasa
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    28 Jun '10 23:46
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    I am talking about time and the universe. Those are real to me. I can't say the same for your God.

    Even if it IS possible to be outside time, we have no clue how to do it ourselves. [We ARE limited to the perspective of ourselves and our mates, since we can't call god down to explain what it's like!] Thus, we can only conjecture what it is like to be ...[text shortened]... uch people? I'm still stuck at the starting gate, and they're running for the finish line.
    to SwissGambit

    Yes god is real, but if the bible is the only source of spiritual knowledge that youve ever looked at, then you will be confused for the rest of your life ( so dont rely on the bible at all).

    Now god being out side of time is something that i said in relationship to a question that someone ask me, and now i dont even remember the question Ok

    But time is only to be found in material universes, such as ours, and it is real to us, and thats ok, no problem, but i said god is out of time, meaning god exists where there is no concept of time, and thats ok too.

    If you want to get your head around the ( no time thing ) you wont and either do i, but i appreciate that a place where there is no time does exist, and i just leave it at that.

    I can suggest a fantastic book that exsplains what i accept to be true about god and life .... it really is a life changing book.

    vishva
  8. Standard memberDasa
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    28 Jun '10 23:53
    Originally posted by vistesd
    [b]A parable:

    Suppose—

    Reality is like a huge gem, so large that no one can perceive more than a few small facets. [Some of those who perceive have left accounts of what they perceived; some of these accounts are called revelation (either by those who produced them, or those who came after). Some of these revelations claim to be a revealing by t ...[text shortened]... _______________________

    “Some say Allah, some say Ram.
    Then they kill each other…”

    —Kabir[/b]
    to Vistead

    Your analogy is really good and mostly true, but there are some absolute facts that are not even debatable, like god is omni present omnipotent omniscient, god is eternal, we are eternal, jesus is not god etc

    vishva
  9. Standard membergalveston75
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    28 Jun '10 23:57
    Originally posted by vishvahetu
    to SwissGambit

    Yes god is real, but if the bible is the only source of spiritual knowledge that youve ever looked at, then you will be confused for the rest of your life ( so dont rely on the bible at all).

    Now god being out side of time is something that i said in relationship to a question that someone ask me, and now i dont even remember the ques ...[text shortened]... ns what i accept to be true about god and life .... it really is a life changing book.

    vishva
    "" Yes god is real, but if the bible is the only source of spiritual knowledge that youve ever looked at, then you will be confused for the rest of your life ( so dont rely on the bible at all).""

    Actually the Bible is not confusing at all. It's mans thoughts and beliefs that confuse them...
  10. Standard memberDasa
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    29 Jun '10 00:07
    Originally posted by galveston75
    "" Yes god is real, but if the bible is the only source of spiritual knowledge that youve ever looked at, then you will be confused for the rest of your life ( so dont rely on the bible at all).""

    Actually the Bible is not confusing at all. It's mans thoughts and beliefs that confuse them...
    to galveston

    If you give the bible to any 15 yr old, they will be confused, and you know they will

    vishva
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    29 Jun '10 10:25
    Originally posted by galveston75

    Actually the Bible is not confusing at all. It's mans thoughts
    Yes. Nothing else.
  12. Standard membergalveston75
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    29 Jun '10 19:20
    Originally posted by vishvahetu
    to galveston

    If you give the bible to any 15 yr old, they will be confused, and you know they will

    vishva
    The Bible is not confusing but it was authored in such a way by God that one has to be willing to search and ask for God's direction to learn. This way ones heart condition is tested out. If one is teachable and is willing to be taught things they may not like to hear at first and be willing to make changes in their life and willing to serve God whole heartedly, then God's spirit will be on that person and then they will learn what the Bible says and learn to appreciate God's ways.
    If the heart is not in the right place accodring to what God is looking for, then it will not make sence to them.
    A completely fair and wise way that God designed the Bible.
  13. Standard memberDasa
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    29 Jun '10 19:43
    Originally posted by galveston75
    The Bible is not confusing but it was authored in such a way by God that one has to be willing to search and ask for God's direction to learn. This way ones heart condition is tested out. If one is teachable and is willing to be taught things they may not like to hear at first and be willing to make changes in their life and willing to serve God whole he ...[text shortened]... it will not make sence to them.
    A completely fair and wise way that God designed the Bible.
    to galverston

    The bible wasnt authored by god, thats erronoious bacause the real and wonderfull loving god would not have a hell just for non christians, cant you see that, cant you see the glaring reality of what i just said.

    Why are you so loyal to that book, because it falsly claims that the eternal soul has one life, but thats silly, because eternal means just that, eternal. ( not one)

    Every single living thing is by their nature eternal like god, and thats the real meaning of ( made in my image), but christian take that as meaning that god has two arms and legs like us, but it doesnt mean that at all.

    In my image means the same character and qualities of god, its not meaning the physiacl body, and the christian have got it wrong again. ( the bible constantly gives false knowledge)

    If you constantly, do not budge from the bible, then you will never know the truth

    Do you not know there are hundreds of fantastic books on the matters of spirituality, and i could suggest some on your asking.
  14. Standard membergalveston75
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    29 Jun '10 20:12
    Originally posted by vishvahetu
    to galverston

    The bible wasnt authored by god, thats erronoious bacause the real and wonderfull loving god would not have a hell just for non christians, cant you see that, cant you see the glaring reality of what i just said.

    Why are you so loyal to that book, because it falsly claims that the eternal soul has one life, but thats silly, because ete ...[text shortened]... reds of fantastic books on the matters of spirituality, and i could suggest some on your asking.
    Well the truth of the Bible is very clear to me with no doubts at all.
    And the hell in the Bible is not a burning place of eternal torment as most religions teach. That teaching is of pagan origin and again one the Bible does not teach.
  15. Standard memberDasa
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    29 Jun '10 21:11
    Originally posted by galveston75
    Well the truth of the Bible is very clear to me with no doubts at all.
    And the hell in the Bible is not a burning place of eternal torment as most religions teach. That teaching is of pagan origin and again one the Bible does not teach.
    to galvaston

    What is not clear about having only one life, and you better get it right or you wll end up tasting the flames, and what is your exsplanation, for the bible not teaching that we are eternal spiritul beings, ( how could god forget to say that in the bible) and in Mathew 25:46 your instructed to everlasting punishment.

    Look, answer if we are eternal or not please.

    I can suggest a great book.

    vishva
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