Long Time Coming

To everyone

Its a long time coming,... to have everyone here, give their definition of god, because many of us here, may have an understanding of god that is very different to the other person.

You see if we all cant come to a satisfactory descision on a well rouded definition of god, then all our discussions are pointless to a degree.

It may require some of us, to exspand or change our already exsisting conception of the WORD GOD......including myself.

vishva

Originally posted by vishvahetu
To everyone

Its a long time coming,... to have everyone here, give their definition of god, because many of us here, may have an understanding of god that is very different to the other person.

You see if we all cant come to a satisfactory descision on a well rouded definition of god, then all our discussions are pointless to a degree.

It may req ...[text shortened]... pand or change our already exsisting conception of the WORD GOD......including myself.

vishva

Your true on the point that we should all be able to talk about spiritual matters without getting mad or throwing insults which are done regularly here.. I've gotten caught up in that myself and have appologized to many for it. Just because we don't agree it gives no one here any right to insult or degrade any human...

Originally posted by galveston75
Your true on the point that we should all be able to talk about spiritual matters without getting mad or throwing insults which are done regularly here.. I've gotten caught up in that myself and have appologized to many for it. Just because we don't agree it gives no one here any right to insult or degrade any human...

Whenever unbridled emotions (with zero capacity for cognitive function, since their only job

is to appreciate) run the show the intellect is in the equivalent position of being henpecked.



.............................................

Originally posted by vishvahetu
To everyone

Its a long time coming,... to have everyone here, give their definition of god, because many of us here, may have an understanding of god that is very different to the other person.

You see if we all cant come to a satisfactory descision on a well rouded definition of god, then all our discussions are pointless to a degree.

It may req ...[text shortened]... pand or change our already exsisting conception of the WORD GOD......including myself.

vishva

Some say god is just the totally of everything in the universe. [i.e., non-dualism] Others say it is some kind of separate being, having powers generally far greater than ours, up to omnipotence. Many believe that god is supernatural, made of different stuff than our physical universe.

Some of the beliefs about god sound flat-out incoherent: he is 'outside time' [whatever the hell that means], etc.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
Some say god is just the totally of everything in the universe. [i.e., non-dualism] Others say it is some kind of separate being, having powers generally far greater than ours, up to omnipotence. Many believe that god is supernatural, made of different stuff than our physical universe.

Some of the beliefs about god sound flat-out incoherent: he is 'outside time' [whatever the hell that means], etc.

Well the Bible says a few things about him that we somewhat understand. He does have feelings all the way from love to anger. He does get jealous too. He is also willing to forgive freely. He has a name. My favorite is that once he forgives, he never brings it back up to us.

1997 Watchtower:

"Does forgiving others mean that we must actually forget what happened? Recall Jehovah’s own example in this regard, as discussed in the preceding article. When the Bible says that Jehovah forgets our sins, this does not mean that he is unable to recall them. (Isaiah 43:25) Rather, he forgets in the sense that once he forgives, he does not hold those sins against us at some future time. (Ezekiel 33:14-16) Similarly, forgiving fellow humans does not necessarily mean that we will be unable to recall what they did. However, we can forget in the sense that we do not hold it against the offender or bring it up again in the future. With the matter thus settled, it would not be appropriate to gossip about it; neither would it be loving to avoid the offender completely, treating him as though he were disfellowshipped. (Proverbs 17:9) True, it may take some time for our relationship with him to heal; we may not enjoy the same closeness as before. But we still love him as our Christian brother and do our best to maintain peaceful relations.—Compare Luke 17:3."

Originally posted by SwissGambit
Some say god is just the totally of everything in the universe. [i.e., non-dualism] Others say it is some kind of separate being, having powers generally far greater than ours, up to omnipotence. Many believe that god is supernatural, made of different stuff than our physical universe.

Some of the beliefs about god sound flat-out incoherent: he is 'outside time' [whatever the hell that means], etc.

to SwissGambit

God being out side of time means that outside this physical universe there is no time, so god being omnipresent means god is there as well as everywhere else.

So in the physical universe we are all livng under the spell of relativity where there is time, and god is there as well.

Look i know it sounds elementry, but i was just saying it to clarify some piont i was making.

Hey i noted your observations you made and your right on. ( but of course there more than that as well)

vishva

Originally posted by vishvahetu
To everyone

Its a long time coming,... to have everyone here, give their definition of god, because many of us here, may have an understanding of god that is very different to the other person.

You see if we all cant come to a satisfactory descision on a well rouded definition of god, then all our discussions are pointless to a degree.

It may req ...[text shortened]... pand or change our already exsisting conception of the WORD GOD......including myself.

vishva

We can't define God.

God reveals Himself.

We either believe God or we don't.

Originally posted by josephw
We can't define God.

God reveals Himself.

We either believe God or we don't.

to josephw

Of course we cant define god, because god is infinite in unlimited ways, but i was carefull to say our definition, because everyone has a conception of the god they believe in, but if we all have our own unique idea of god, then we cannot discuss the subject properly.

If you are a christian, then your conception of god would be father, would that be right.

vishva

Originally posted by vishvahetu
...outside this physical universe there is no time...

This is just utterly incoherent to me. How is it possible to be outside the universe, for example?

Originally posted by SwissGambit
This is just utterly incoherent to me. How is it possible to be outside the universe, for example?

to SwissGambit

Dont forget where talking about the omnipresent, Omniscient and Omnipotent god, not you and your mates.

vishva

Originally posted by vishvahetu
You see if we all cant come to a satisfactory descision on a well rouded definition of god, then all our discussions are pointless to a degree.

It is not that simple. We can, and do, use the word to mean different things in different contexts. If I talk of your God, or the Christian God, or the non-Dualist God, I could be referring to quite different entities with different definitions. I notice you didn't even capitalize the 'g' which gives even more free roam. Now I can talk of Egyptians gods, and I could even say money is 'a god'.
I fully agree that it is important to be clear what you mean when you use the word, but it is not necessary to stick to one definition at all times.

Also, suppose I am talking to a Christian and discussing the Christian God. The basic definition would be 'the entity that Christians worship'. Now Christians may disagree about the various attributes of that entity, and I may disagree about his existence. So his specific attributes are not always part of the definition.

Originally posted by twhitehead
So his specific attributes are not always part of the definition.

also, many religious thinkers have held that God is essentially ineffable, and outstrips human concepts. to say something along the lines like 'God loves', for example, is inadequate. however, it is the best we can do, given the limitation of human concepts / language.

i suppose one way to approach the question would be to answer a series of sub-questions, along the lines of:

Do you believe God created the universe and all in it?

Do you believe God intervenes in the running of the universe (causes miracles, answers prayers etc.), or did He create it and then leave it to run according to the laws of physics?

Do you believe that God is omnipotent?

Do you believe that God is omniscient?

Do you believe that God is infinitely good?

getting down to the more specific:

Do you believe that God is a trinity?

Do you believe that God prohibits the eating of pork?

and so on.

Originally posted by Blackamp
i suppose one way to approach the question would be to answer a series of sub-questions, along the lines of:

Do you believe God created the universe and all in it?
.....

The problem with the way you have formed the questions, is that you are trying to establish what people believe, not what they mean when they say 'God'. A Christian may discuss God with a Muslim, and they may discuss the Christian God, or the Muslim God, or God in general. Its all about context.

Quite often when I say it is theoretically possible to disprove the existence of God, some Christian will say "but if God is a little green man on the far side of Jupiter, you will not disprove his existence". So in some cases, Christians are quite happy to broaden the definition of God to just about anything. I have no problem with changing definitions just as long as we are clear what we mean when we use the term.

One big mistake people make with words, is they try to use definitions to 'prove' the existence of matching entities. For example, they may say:
1. God exists.
2. But 'God' is by definition omnipotent.
3. Therefor an omnipotent being exists.

Originally posted by twhitehead
The problem with the way you have formed the questions, is that you are trying to establish what people believe, not what they mean when they say 'God'. A Christian may discuss God with a Muslim, and they may discuss the Christian God, or the Muslim God, or God in general. Its all about context.

i take your point - particularly with regard to the lower-level questions, but if the task is to try to establish what, if any, common ground we share when talking about 'God', then a) i think once someone answers these questions we have some idea of what their conception of God is - what they mean by 'God', and b) i'm not sure that we can do any better.

if Muslims and Christians disagree about God's attitude toward eating pork, they may still be discussing the same entity or kind of entity, but if a Christian tries to discuss God with someone who doesn't believe God is the creator of the universe, they are probably just talking about different things. for example, someone who is thinking of a god - Apollo, say - seems to be talking about a different kind of entity than the one Christians, Muslims etc. believe in (and atheists mean when they say 'i don't believe in God' as opposed to 'i don't believe in gods'.

to make the same point in another way: if we ask someone 'what do you mean by "God"?', they'll typically respond in a way that answers one or more of these questions, or ones of the same form - 'God is the being that created the universe', 'God is the universe', 'God is the only omniscient, omnipotent, infinitely good being', etc. what other kind of response can we make?

Originally posted by vishvahetu
to josephw

Of course we cant define god, because god is infinite in unlimited ways, but i was carefull to say our definition, because everyone has a conception of the god they believe in, but if we all have our own unique idea of god, then we cannot discuss the subject properly.

If you are a christian, then your conception of god would be father, would that be right.

vishva

..."because everyone has a conception of the god they believe in,.."

But where did that conception of God come from? Certainly we don't generate that conception from within ourselves. We don't create our own conception of God do we? Some do.

My point is simple. If we know anything about God, it is because God reveals it to us. Any knowledge we have about who and what God is comes from God.

It's only logical, if there be a God. But if there is no God, then we are delusional.


..."but if we all have our own unique idea of god, then we cannot discuss the subject properly."

Precisely. It must be understood first that if we do know anything about God, that knowledge about who and what God is comes from God.

My point is, if there be a God, what we know about Him comes from, and is revealed by Him to us.

We cannot know God by ourselves. What is knowable about God comes from, and is reveal by God.

I can only say it so many different ways.


..."then your conception of god would be father,.."

Yes, because that is how God has revealed Himself. And many other ways besides.