1. Cosmos
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    08 Jul '05 05:25
    “We don’t make a distinction between civilians and non-civilians, innocents and non-innocents, only between Muslims and unbelievers. And the life of an unbeliever has no value, no sanctity.”

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2005310429,00.html

    This is indicative of the deeply held belief of ALL religious people. They believe they are somehow better than non-followers of their religion.

    Jews call non-jews "heathens".
    Christians say non-believers go to hell.
    Even Buddhists do not criticise other religions, since to do so is to give them credibility. (implying that other believers are fools)

    Until people realise that God does not exist, then there is no chance that everybody will see everyone else as equals.
  2. Joined
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    08 Jul '05 07:40
    Originally posted by howardgee
    “We don’t make a distinction between civilians and non-civilians, innocents and non-innocents, only between Muslims and unbelievers. And the life of an unbeliever has no value, no sanctity.”

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2005310429,00.html

    This is indicative of the deeply held belief of ALL religious people. They believe they are somehow bet ...[text shortened]... hat God does not exist, then there is no chance that everybody will see everyone else as equals.
    good post.

    faith-based religions are arbitrary, and i really can't stress that point enough. one man's arbitrary belief is no better or worse than another man's arbitrary belief. in that sense, i consider all faith-based religions (and all theists) as equally credible and equally irrational. the problem is that some religious zealots actually think their beliefs are tenable, and what's more, they consider themselves part of a select few appointed to 'educate' the world. to me, this is the pinnacle of arrogance and the crux of the problem you describe.

    Until people realise that God does not exist, then there is no chance that everybody will see everyone else as equals.

    this statement is slightly too strong for my liking. i think agnosticism is tenable; also i think that to alleviate the problems you described, it might suffice for the religious zealots to simply acknowledge the arbitrary nature of their beliefs. i personally don't think it will happen any time soon.
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    08 Jul '05 07:54
    I have been a christian for two years now but when i was going to be baptised, the priest told me that i already had. He taught me that anyone who behaves out in love, peace and compassion had been baptised into the body of Jesus. I can assure anyone that even atheists would be received into heaven if they accepted God (who is love). My bible says do not judge. And so most Christians i know don't. It seems to be an anti- religion agent who maintains such a fallacy that non- believers are cast into hell.
  4. Standard memberKellyJay
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    08 Jul '05 08:19
    Originally posted by howardgee
    “We don’t make a distinction between civilians and non-civilians, innocents and non-innocents, only between Muslims and unbelievers. And the life of an unbeliever has no value, no sanctity.”

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2005310429,00.html

    This is indicative of the deeply held belief of ALL religious people. They believe they are somehow bet ...[text shortened]... hat God does not exist, then there is no chance that everybody will see everyone else as equals.
    It isn't a religion issue, is it a people issue. Religion or sometimes the
    so called lack of it is just a means to an end with some.
    Kelly
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    08 Jul '05 08:46
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    It isn't a religion issue, is it a people issue. Religion or sometimes the
    so called lack of it is just a means to an end with some.
    Kelly
    i agree to an extent, but it seems like few things can provoke such strong personal convictions as can faith and religious belief. i think much discrimination has occurred due expressly to arbitrary religious beliefs (as opposed to simply mean people who harbor such resentment under false pretense and alternative motives).
  6. Standard memberKellyJay
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    08 Jul '05 08:50
    Originally posted by LemonJello
    i agree to an extent, but it seems like few things can provoke such strong personal convictions as can faith and religious belief. i think much discrimination has occurred due expressly to arbitrary religious beliefs (as opposed to simply mean people who harbor such resentment under false pretense and alternative motives).
    Simply wearing certain colors of clothes down certain streets can also
    provoke hate, someone's skin color, someone's nationality, how much
    money another makes, and the list goes on and on. It is not religion
    that is the blame, the trouble is with us, we are to easly driven to
    hate someone else.
    Kelly
  7. Joined
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    08 Jul '05 09:02
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Simply wearing certain colors of clothes down certain streets can also
    provoke hate, someone's skin color, someone's nationality, how much
    money another makes, and the list goes on and on. It is not religion
    that is the blame, the trouble is with us, we are to easly driven to
    hate someone else.
    Kelly
    i agree that there is a lot of hate floating around for no apparent reason. however, if discrimination has occurred expressly because of arbitrary religious beliefs, then said discrimination would have been avoided if the arbitrary beliefs had not existed. i think this is what howardgee is driving at.
  8. Standard memberKellyJay
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    08 Jul '05 09:31
    Originally posted by LemonJello
    i agree that there is a lot of hate floating around for no apparent reason. however, if discrimination has occurred expressly because of arbitrary religious beliefs, then said discrimination would have been avoided if the arbitrary beliefs had not existed. i think this is what howardgee is driving at.
    I know what he was driving at it, but the cause of hateful actions as
    I pointed out happens in and out of religion. We can also say that
    religion also causes good things to occur too such as building
    hospitals, feeding the poor, building schools and so on, but we also
    could make the same claims outside of religion. We are vessels, filled
    with the human spirit and will do what we will, as we want, we just need
    excuses to justify ourselves from time to time because we feel the
    need for justification. So sometimes we will wrap ourselves in the
    flag, in a god, in the color of our skin, the law, eye for an eye,
    or whatever.
    Kelly
  9. Cosmos
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    08 Jul '05 09:471 edit
    Originally posted by Conrau K
    I have been a christian for two years now but when i was going to be baptised, the priest told me that i already had. He taught me that anyone who behaves out in love, peace and compassion had been baptised into the body of Jesus. I can as ...[text shortened]... maintains such a fallacy that non- believers are cast into hell.
    You claim:
    "I can assure anyone that even atheists would be received into heaven if they accepted God (who is love)."

    But by definition, someone who accepted God, would not be an Atheist!

    Therefore where do Atheists go when they die?
  10. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    08 Jul '05 10:021 edit
    Originally posted by howardgee
    You claim:
    "I can assure anyone that even atheists would be received into heaven if they accepted God (who is love)."

    But by definition, someone who accepted God, would not be an Atheist!

    Therefore where do Atheists go when they die?
    According to Christ non-believers go to the same place they would go if they were believers.
    According to Paul they go to hell for not believing.
  11. Standard memberthesonofsaul
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    08 Jul '05 14:43
    Originally posted by howardgee
    “We don’t make a distinction between civilians and non-civilians, innocents and non-innocents, only between Muslims and unbelievers. And the life of an unbeliever has no value, no sanctity.”

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2005310429,00.html

    This is indicative of the deeply held belief of ALL religious people. They believe they are somehow bet ...[text shortened]... hat God does not exist, then there is no chance that everybody will see everyone else as equals.
    It's not about belief in God. Take away all belief in God and people will still not see themselves as equals. Someone will be able to jump higher, or swim longer, speak better, think better, earn more money, etc. Humans beings are characteristically elitists. Sure, religion brings this out in people, but so does the lack of religion ... or do you not see yourself as better then the religious for having come to your senses about the non-existence of God?

    ... --- ...
  12. Standard memberthesonofsaul
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    08 Jul '05 14:45
    Originally posted by frogstomp
    According to Christ non-believers go to the same place they would go if they were believers.
    According to Paul they go to hell for not believing.
    Interesting. Do you have the verses that back up this statement?
  13. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    08 Jul '05 15:221 edit
    Originally posted by thesonofsaul
    Interesting. Do you have the verses that back up this statement?
    Matthew 25:31 - 46 is Christ

    and

    2 Tim 3:14-15 is Paul
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    08 Jul '05 15:46
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    I know what he was driving at it, but the cause of hateful actions as
    I pointed out happens in and out of religion. We can also say that
    religion also causes good things to occur too such as building
    hospitals, feeding the poor, building schools and so on, but we also
    could make the same claims outside of religion. We are vessels, filled
    with the human ...[text shortened]... n the
    flag, in a god, in the color of our skin, the law, eye for an eye,
    or whatever.
    Kelly
    Great post, KellyJay. 🙂 I agree with you 100%
  15. Standard memberKellyJay
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    08 Jul '05 17:37
    Originally posted by frogstomp
    Matthew 25:31 - 46 is Christ

    and

    2 Tim 3:14-15 is Paul
    You need to look at each persons compete teaching on the matter,
    as you know several times in everyone's life you will be stressing a
    point on any given topic. The topic could be much larger than a few
    bits and pieces of a single conversation.
    Kelly
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