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11 Mar 22
Far from it. We rose up, we adapted, we endured. The whole original sin narrative is a slap in the face for the incredible achievements we have made as a species.
"You've got to invest in the world, you've got to read, you've got to go to art galleries, you've got to find out the names of plants. You've got to start to love the world and know about the whole genius of the human race. We're amazing people."
Vivienne Westwood
@ghost-of-a-duke saidNo doubt about it. Neither are all the people of the world a bunch of filthy sinners. Most people are honest and trustworthy, hardworking and resilient, caring and giving. The reason why church people think little of the world is that they tend to socialize only among their own and judge others by their own standards which are pretty low.
Far from it. We rose up, we adapted, we endured. The whole original sin narrative is a slap in the face for the incredible achievements we have made as a species.
"You've got to invest in the world, you've got to read, you've got to go to art galleries, you've got to find out the names of plants. You've got to start to love the world and know about the whole genius of the human race. We're amazing people."
Vivienne Westwood
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11 Mar 22
@moonbus saidAs an aside, I once met Vivienne Westwood.
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
Mankind did not fall. They were tripped.
11 Mar 22
@ghost-of-a-duke saidWe rose up, we adapted, we endured.
Far from it. We rose up, we adapted, we endured. The whole original sin narrative is a slap in the face for the incredible achievements we have made as a species.
"You've got to invest in the world, you've got to read, you've got to go to art galleries, you've got to find out the names of plants. You've got to start to love the world and know about the whole genius of the human race. We're amazing people."
Vivienne Westwood
What did we rise up from?
What did we have to adapt to? and why?
What did we have to endure? and why?
12 Mar 22
@vivify saidHeh, they view it as a permanent disease brought on the entire human race. Or perhaps as a 'sin gene' that was hard-coded into DNA at that point.
Is it really "mankind" who fell when it was only two people who sinned? Come on.
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12 Mar 22
@kingdavid403 saidWe rose up and evolved from more primitive life forms. We had to adapt to a changing environment, to be successful, to prosper, to survive. We had to endure competition and the constant threat of extinction. We did all these things to have life and to create future generations of life. We are an amazing species. We have come a long way, against all the odds. If we don't destroy ourselves or get wiped out by disease or events outside of our control, humanity has an exciting future ahead, one of science, technology and exploration.
We rose up, we adapted, we endured.
What did we rise up from?
What did we have to adapt to? and why?
What did we have to endure? and why?
Our original purpose (for want of a better word) may have been simply survival and reproduction, but as an advanced species we have now fashioned our own purpose, our own reasons for existence.
12 Mar 22
@kingdavid403 saidWe had to prevail against big predators which were faster and stronger than ourselves, equipped with fangs, claws, and fur. As loners, we didn’t stand a chance. We prevailed only because we bonded into groups and cooperated. We prevailed because we learned how to specialize (firemaker, toolmaker, hunter, etc) within the group, and because we learned how to pass on knowledge (eg, what plants are poisonous) so each generation did not have to learn everything from scratch. These advantages were not given to us; we worked hard to achieve and enhance them.
We rose up, we adapted, we endured.
What did we rise up from?
What did we have to adapt to? and why?
What did we have to endure? and why?
@rajk999 saidDo you think there are good people and bad people out there? There is a fundamental difference; we are all not the same; according to your gospel, some do not need to repent before God? According to your gospel, this class of good people, what caused them to be righteous with no need to turn towards God and repent? Some evolutionary change in human development that altered behavior making them righteous?
No doubt about it. Neither are all the people of the world a bunch of filthy sinners. Most people are honest and trustworthy, hardworking and resilient, caring and giving. The reason why church people think little of the world is that they tend to socialize only among their own and judge others by their own standards which are pretty low.
Scripture says that if we are walking in the flesh, we cannot please God, so all of those that do the things of the flesh do so to gratify the desires of the flesh—so being hateful, causing strife, name-calling, lying, stealing, lusting, and other such things are acceptable? Those that act as if God should be lucky to have them because they are so good, do you think that is the truth or pride?
Those you described do not need forgiveness before God? There is nothing in them that God needs to fix; what if they are everything you listed but do not know God's grace and mercy, feeling they are suitable before God just as they are, they don't need God's Spirit in them making them more like Jesus, is that not pride because the Bible says we all have sinned?
People have asked that anyone who claims they are sinners show them their sin? They feel no need for repentance; they are good people just as they are in their own eyes! Do you think such people before God will stand before the Holy God of all creation and be accepted by Him, or will He cast into Hell for their arrogance, ignoring the grace and mercy God offers through Jesus Christ? What does your good news say? What does the gospel, according to rajk999, declare before God and man?
@ghost-of-a-duke saidI agree with much of what you and moonbus are saying here. However, moonbus kinda hit the nail on the head, in my opinion, with this statement:
We rose up and evolved from more primitive life forms. We had to adapt to a changing environment, to be successful, to prosper, to survive. We had to endure competition and the constant threat of extinction. We did all these things to have life and to create future generations of life. We are an amazing species. We have come a long way, against all the odds. If we don ...[text shortened]... on, but as an advanced species we have now fashioned our own purpose, our own reasons for existence.
"We prevailed only because we bonded into groups and cooperated."
In my opinion, we have only survived because of the love in us for each other; which is not much for those outside of our own personal cultures and worldview. God is Love; that's scripture. We are made in the image of God.
[1Corinthians 13:1-10 NKJV] 1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed [the poor], and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing. 4 Love suffers long [and] is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never fails."
What little bit of love that we have in us, for each other, is the reason that we have survived; in my opinion.
Accomplishing perfect love in ones self is beyond a life-long task for any human.
@vivify saidTrust me, I still have questions myself. However, metaphorically speaking, what is written in God's Holy Word I find true and correct.
Is it really "mankind" who fell when it was only two people who sinned? Come on.
The just of it is: Adam and Eve conspired with Satan to kick God aside, and then they could become gods themselves (so they thought), and, just like Satan has always wanted. My personal paraphrased version (subject to change). If you study scriptures, you will see that there were other people on this earth beside Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. The Physical bloodline of Jesus can be traced all the way back to Adam and Eve in the Bible; it's all written down for anyone to read and see. There seems to have been some sort of separation between Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, and the rest of the world, until the fall.
@kingdavid403 saidI think it makes for an interesting allegory rooted in the self-reflection of the members of that culture as they pondered the human condition: why are we sometimes bad? Why are we not good ALL the time? Have we made our creator angry? As for that supernatural/divine element of the story... well one can take it or leave it.
However, metaphorically speaking, what is written in God's Holy Word I find true and correct.
The just of it is: Adam and Eve conspired with Satan to kick God aside, and then they could become gods themselves (so they thought), and, just like Satan has always wanted.
12 Mar 22
@fmf saidThanks for sharing your thoughts.
I think it makes for an interesting allegory rooted in the self-reflection of the members of that culture as they pondered the human condition: why are we sometimes bad? Why are we not good ALL the time? Have we made our creator angry? As for that supernatural/divine element of the story... well one can take it or leave it.
12 Mar 22
@kingdavid403 saidThere are good reasons why the Judeo-Islamic-Christian literature proved to be so popular.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.