Mankind didn't fall

@kingdavid403 said
I agree with much of what you and moonbus are saying here. However, moonbus kinda hit the nail on the head, in my opinion, with this statement:
"We prevailed only because we bonded into groups and cooperated."
In my opinion, we have only survived because of the love in us for each other; which is not much for those outside of our own personal cultures and world ...[text shortened]... d; in my opinion.
Accomplishing perfect love in ones self is beyond a life-long task for any human.

I don't think that early cooperation was forged through love, but through a shared desire to survive, something we did better when in a group. Over time that pack mentality developed into a basic morality (you don't kill me and I won't kill you) and thereafter into communities and societies.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
I don't think that early cooperation was forged through love, but through a shared desire to survive, something we did better when in a group. Over time that pack mentality developed into a basic morality (you don't kill me and I won't kill you) and thereafter into communities and societies.

We became cooperative from a time we were not is based on many assumptions without a means to validate. Where did everything come from, out of nothing, was it always here, did something that transcends it all start it? When did we become self-aware, let alone start carrying about anything whatsoever? When did life start, when did the information drive the biological systems to get into life, or was it necessary for life to even begin, let alone maintain itself or improve?

To get where we could lift ourselves from out of the muck and mire or wherever it is that you think life started, it had to start. The beginning of this all is the key to the whole; anyone can come up with a reason why something might have happened, but is it reasonable?

In the beginning, if how it began cannot be answered, then nothing we say about what is going on now is purely out of the imagination of man, and that will be true of most of our explanations.

@fmf said
There are good reasons why the Judeo-Islamic-Christian literature proved to be so popular.

As with most religions of the world and their literature. Notice that Jesus is accepted as a way or conduit to the Supreme being, in almost all religions.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
I don't think that early cooperation was forged through love, but through a shared desire to survive, something we did better when in a group. Over time that pack mentality developed into a basic morality (you don't kill me and I won't kill you) and thereafter into communities and societies.

Well, that was certainly part of it, that's for sure. It's still much the same today. However, I do not think that we can survive without love. If so, it sounds like hell to me.

@kellyjay said
In the beginning, if how it began cannot be answered, then nothing we say about what is going on now is purely out of the imagination of man, and that will be true of most of our explanations.

Well, we DON'T know how we originated, KellyJay, and yet everything from anthropology through to zoology, via psychology, physics, chemistry and mathematics and law, cannot be dismissed as "purely out of the imagination of man" and if that IS in fact what you really think, then you are perhaps belittling yourself.

@kellyjay said
We became cooperative from a time we were not is based on many assumptions without a means to validate. Where did everything come from, out of nothing, was it always here, did something that transcends it all start it? When did we become self-aware, let alone start carrying about anything whatsoever? When did life start, when did the information drive the biological systems ...[text shortened]... g on now is purely out of the imagination of man, and that will be true of most of our explanations.

It is a factual statement that we evolved as a species, that we owe our survival to, among other things, our ability to cooperate. We have archeological evidence to support this.

This is not an origin conversation.

@kingdavid403 said
Notice that Jesus is accepted as a way or conduit to the Supreme being, in almost all religions.

"Accepted as a conduit"?

What does that mean in reality?

He's a prophet in Islam and the Messiah in Christianity. Are these examples of being a "conduit"?

In what way is he a "conduit" to Hindus for example?

@kingdavid403 said
Well, that was certainly part of it, that's for sure. It's still much the same today. However, I do not think that we can survive without love. If so, it sounds like hell to me.

The purest love is between parent and offspring. Humans are not unique in this respect. Love's primary function is bonding, reproduction, and genetic survival.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
It is a factual statement that we evolved as a species, that we owe our survival to, among other things, our ability to cooperate. We have archeological evidence to support this.

This is not an origin conversation.

It is believed we evolved, a fact, no, I think you are jumping ahead here. It isn't a fact; facts can be validated, you have a narrative, nothing more. There is nothing that says how it all started, nothing! The life-changing issue from one to another without direct supervision is also a leap of great faith; it isn't funny.

I posted this earlier; it is a Christian, an Atheist, and an Agnostic (I think) being interviewed about the issues of evolution.

YouTube

@kellyjay said
It is believed we evolved, a fact, no, I think you are jumping ahead here. It isn't a fact; facts can be validated, you have a narrative, nothing more. There is nothing that says how it all started, nothing! The life-changing issue from one to another without direct supervision is also a leap of great faith; it isn't funny.

I posted this earlier; it is a Christian, an At ...[text shortened]... tic being interviewed about the issues of evolution.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noj4phMT9OE

I repeat, we have ample evidence to validate our evolutionary journey and to render the whole Adam and Eve account irrelevant.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
The purest love is between parent and offspring. Humans are not unique in this respect. Love's primary function is bonding, reproduction, and genetic survival.

I disagree with everything you stated here. Let's start with the first one:
The purest love is between parent and offspring.
I really hope you are joking here; in all sincerity. If not, I know millions of parents that you need to meet.
Humans are not unique in this respect.
I think humans are unique in this respect; and, many other respects; compared to the fleshly world anyway. I agree that animals are capable of love too. Some very much so.
Love's primary function is bonding, reproduction, and genetic survival.
What about ones need to be loved? Or, what about the desire in us for love? Is it all about sex "bonding, reproduction, and genetic survival" all the time?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
I repeat, we have ample evidence to validate our evolutionary journey and to render the whole Adam and Eve account irrelevant.

There is the universe and everything in it; it is all evidence, nothing that is, is not part of the question. So a narrative is created looking at what a fossil is that evidence for evolution? That is evidence for something that died and became a fossil. You add to that you left the evidence and created a story about what it may show. Even if I granted evolution is true, that does not dismiss any of the questions I posed; it highlights them even more by looking at the informational instructions in life that are so advanced they could change progressively. Some say that the evidence shows that the changes are causing life to devolve, losing information, and causing viruses to become more and more deadly; evidence can cut both ways.

@kingdavid403 said
I disagree with everything you stated here. Let's start with the first one:
The purest love is between parent and offspring.
I really hope you are joking here; in all sincerity. If not, I know millions of parents that you need to meet.
Humans are not unique in this respect.
I think humans are unique in this respect; and, many other respects; compare ...[text shortened]... ire in us for love? Is it all about sex "bonding, reproduction, and genetic survival" all the time?

I really hope you are joking here; in all sincerity. If not, I know millions of parents that you need to meet.
Not all humans are good parents, that is true. But that doesn't negate the fact that the love between parent and child (generally speaking) is invariably an unconditional and enduring love. This is not by chance. This is wired into us, as it is in most animals. (To aid genetic survival).
I think humans are unique in this respect; and, many other respects; compared to the fleshly world anyway. I agree that animals are capable of love too. Some very much so.
By conceding animals are capable of love too you are in fact validating my statement that humans are not unique in this regard.
What about ones need to be loved? Or, what about the desire in us for love? Is it all about sex "bonding, reproduction, and genetic survival" all the time?
I think you have overlooked the word 'primary.'

@ghost-of-a-duke said
I really hope you are joking here; in all sincerity. If not, I know millions of parents that you need to meet.
Not all humans are good parents, that is true. But that doesn't negate the fact that the love between parent and child (generally speaking) is invariably an unconditional and enduring love. This is not by chance. This is wired into us, as it is in mos ...[text shortened]... production, and genetic survival" all the time?[/b]
I think you have overlooked the word 'primary.'

the fact that the love between parent and child (generally speaking) is invariably an unconditional and enduring love.
Well, I've heard of this love; however, I personally have never seen or felt this in my own life; or in that of several others.
By conceding animals are capable of love too you are in fact validating my statement that humans are not unique in this regard.
To some extent, yes.

I think you have overlooked the word 'primary.'
So love in a primary genetic gene produced in us, and animals, for our production and survival?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
The purest love is between parent and offspring. Humans are not unique in this respect. Love's primary function is bonding, reproduction, and genetic survival.

There's no prize for packing the most unprovable assertions into a single post.