13 Sep 15
Originally posted by FreakyKBHJesus spoke of the Roman coin as if it was no big deal, so I doubt John saw a coin in his vision and called it the mark of the beast.
I previously acknowledged my ommission of the worfd "of," but you have made an incorrect quote and you've yet to provide the distinction.
The "of" simply renders that portion to:
"... carve-effect on of-the hand of-them of-the right or on of-the foreheads of-them"
Literally nothing in this passage or otherwise speaks of anything related ...[text shortened]... se without it are killed.
By your interpretation, moniless people will be killed.
Laughable.
"Show Me the coin used for the poll-tax." And they brought Him a denarius. And He said to them, "Whose likeness and inscription is this?" They said to Him, "Caesar's." Then He said to them, "Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's."
(Matthew 22:19-21 NASB)
Originally posted by RJHindsWhen Jesus was alive, Tiberius was Caesar.
[b]Jesus spoke of the Roman coin as if it was no big deal, so I doubt John saw a coin in his vision and called it the mark of the beast.
"Show Me the coin used for the poll-tax." And they brought Him a denarius. And He said to them, "Whose likeness and inscription is this?" They said to Him, "Caesar's." Then He said to them, "Then render to Ca ...[text shortened]... ings that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's."
(Matthew 22:19-21 NASB)[/b]
Nero was a truly horrible person.
https://www.gci.org/bible/rev13/mark
The Greek word used for "mark" is charagma. It was the technical term for the Roman imperial stamp that appeared on various documents. The charagma was a seal stamped with the name and date of the emperor and attached to commercial documents. Apparently, it also stood for the emperor’s head stamped on coins. Thus, the charagma represented the likeness or name of the emperor.
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http://www.christianbiblereference.org/faq_Revelation.htm
Another beast comes up out of the earth. It has two horns like a lamb but speaks like a dragon. It deceives the inhabitants of earth. No one can buy or sell who does not bear the mark of the beast. One with wisdom can calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a person. Its number is six hundred sixty-six.
Interpretation: There is some disagreement, but this beast most likely represents the Roman emperor Nero. The Hebrew language used letters to represent numbers. Taking Nero's Greek name (Neron Kaiser), writing it in equivalent Hebrew letters and adding up the value of the letters yields 666. The Christians of Jewish origin, who were familiar with Hebrew, would see this immediately. But the Roman authorities would not be able to figure it out.
Nero, a fierce persecutor of Christians, had committed suicide in 68 A.D. But there was a persistent rumor that he was still alive. The healed wound in Revelation 13:3, 13:12 alludes to that rumor. The emperor's image was stamped on Roman coins, so no one could buy or sell without having the beast's image (Revelation 13:16-17).
13 Sep 15
https://www.gci.org/bible/rev/beast
John does not give us the specific titles or names he saw on the head of the beast rising from the sea. But we can infer something of their nature by understanding John’s times, and noting that each of the beast’s heads had a "blasphemous name" (verse 1). This symbolism identifies the beast as the Roman Empire.
The Roman emperors were called divus or sebastos, words that referred to a divinity they claimed or accepted for themselves. On coins minted in Nero’s reign, he is called the "Savior of the world." According to the historian Suetonius, the emperor during which Revelation was most likely written, Domitian, was addressed as Dominus et Deus noster. It meant "Our Lord and God" (Suetonius, Domitian 13). Such titles were sacrilegious or blasphemous because only God is divine and only Jesus is Savior.
Thus, the blasphemous names on the beast’s head are meant to expose his attempt to claim for himself the glory and majesty that belong to God alone. The Roman Empire, as symbolized in its emperors, considered itself to be a kind of savior of the world. Meanwhile, it ruled unjustly, usurped godly prerogatives and persecuted the church. In these ways, it revealed itself to be the "beast" of Revelation 13.
13 Sep 15
1 edit
Originally posted by AThousandYoungJohn could have easily used the same words as Jesus if he meant a coin with an image on it. It would not have taken any wisdom if it had just been a Roman coin with the image of Caesar. So that is not it.
When Jesus was alive, Tiberius was Caesar.
Nero was a truly horrible person.
https://www.gci.org/bible/rev13/mark
The Greek word used for "mark" is charagma. It was the technical term for the Roman imperial stamp that appeared on various documents. The charagma was a seal stamped with the name and date of the emperor and attached to comm ...[text shortened]... n coins, so no one could buy or sell without having the beast's image (Revelation 13:16-17).
I don't know of anyone today that would think they could not buy or sell something without Roman coins.
Anyway, this vision was of something that would happen in the future not something that had already happened. So no, it cannot be any coin for there are many different types of coins with all kinds of inscriptions and images on them. And in those days there were many ways to buy and sell without using Roman coins.
14 Sep 15
Originally posted by RJHindsJohn was speaking in code so the Romans wouldn't understand him.
John could have easily used the same words as Jesus if he meant a coin with an image on it. It would not have taken any wisdom if it had just been a Roman coin with the image of Caesar. So that is not it.
I don't know of anyone today that would think they could not buy or sell something without Roman coins.
Anyway, this vision was of something that ...[text shortened]... mages on them. And in those days there were many ways to buy and sell without using Roman coins.
14 Sep 15
Originally posted by RJHindsAnd your point is...
[b]Jesus spoke of the Roman coin as if it was no big deal, so I doubt John saw a coin in his vision and called it the mark of the beast.
"Show Me the coin used for the poll-tax." And they brought Him a denarius. And He said to them, "Whose likeness and inscription is this?" They said to Him, "Caesar's." Then He said to them, "Then render to Ca ...[text shortened]... ings that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's."
(Matthew 22:19-21 NASB)[/b]
14 Sep 15
Originally posted by AThousandYoungIt's an interesting speculation, but it has no application in the real world, or even in the time since those days.
When Jesus was alive, Tiberius was Caesar.
Nero was a truly horrible person.
https://www.gci.org/bible/rev13/mark
The Greek word used for "mark" is charagma. It was the technical term for the Roman imperial stamp that appeared on various documents. The charagma was a seal stamped with the name and date of the emperor and attached to comm ...[text shortened]... n coins, so no one could buy or sell without having the beast's image (Revelation 13:16-17).
Since before those times, coinage/currency emphatically was not and is not the only form of reciprocity.
Making your belief even harder to hold, I'd estimate that coinage/currency accounts for 5-7% of of retail goods and services exchanges in today's EFT-driven societies.
One could easily never use anything with anyone's image on it and have all their needs met.
14 Sep 15
Originally posted by KellyJayYes, but when I posted that, the conversation was talking about monitoring devices, such as cameras on every street corner. Even George Orwell could not foresee smart phones with GPS. Soon, governments won't have to declare martial law, they'll be able to monitor us and control us no matter where we are.
I thought that book was something given the thought police that seems to be in play today
with all the PC in our lives.
Originally posted by RJHindsIt was a vision of what would happen in the future...from the perspective of people living in the first century CE.
John could have easily used the same words as Jesus if he meant a coin with an image on it. It would not have taken any wisdom if it had just been a Roman coin with the image of Caesar. So that is not it.
I don't know of anyone today that would think they could not buy or sell something without Roman coins.
Anyway, this vision was of something that ...[text shortened]... mages on them. And in those days there were many ways to buy and sell without using Roman coins.
From our perspective two thousand years later, it happened in the past.