Maryology

Originally posted by @eladar
John 17

Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to [a]all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.

Is that reference connected in any way to my question?

Originally posted by @rajk999
Is that reference connected in any way to my question?

You mean your question about eternal life?

Originally posted by @eladar
You mean your question about eternal life?

Nevermind.

I normally do not like copy/pasting material from somewhere else, but because this is a question asked by others and it involves numerous Biblical citations, I figure that we might as well just go to a better source than I:

"In our Prayer rule we can also ask the saints to intercede for us and to help us in our worldly struggles. Saints are those holy individuals who have died as martyrs, who have made a fearless confession of faith often with the threat of death, who have demonstrated self-sacrificing service, who have a special gift of healing and perform miracles after their death when remembered in prayer.

These holy people the Lord calls His friends. You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. (John 15:14-15)

They are those He has received in His heavenly mansions in fulfillment of His words: Where I am, there you may be also. (John 14:3) Instead of praying for forgiveness of their sins, we praise them for their struggles in Christ. We make petitions to them asking them to pray for us and the remission of our sins and spiritual growth, seeking their help in our spiritual needs.

The saints are near the Throne of God.

Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, who praised the Lord. (Rev 5:11)

Our communion in prayer with the saints is the realization of the bond between Christians on earth and the Heavenly Church. (Heb 12:22-23)

Sacred scripture presents numerous examples that the righteous, while still living can see and hear and know much that is inaccessible to the ordinary understanding. The saints while they were still on earth we able to penetrate in spirit into the world above.

From the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (luke 16:10-31) we know that Abraham being in heaven could hear the cry of the rich man who was suffering in hell, despite the great unbridgeable gulf that separates them.

The Church has always taught the invocation of the saints, convinced they intercede for us before God in heaven. Having a prayer relationship with a saint is another way that we can gain help in our spiritual path to salvation in the Church.

Source: http://www.orthodoxprayer.org/Saints%20in%20Prayer.html

Church traditions has us do these things. As it says in 2 Thess 2:15:

""So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.""

And as it says in Hebrews 12:1:

"Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, we must get rid of every weight and the sin that clings so closely, and run with endurance the race set out for us,"

... Being taught that we should venerate our Saints and ask for their intercession (in accordance with the first passage), and having the scriptures totally affirm that we have a cloud of witnesses (the Saints, the angels, etc.) around us, why woul dwe think that it would be unacceptable to ask for the aid of Saints and their intercessory prayer and acts?

Of course, the Saints would tell you themselves: they are there ot fulfill and obey God. These actions are not independent of God or otherwise the source of anything. There is nothign in our teachings that suggest we ought to believe in some Saint more than God. A Saint is someone who is honored for having lived so well for God, and is honored still by God by being a source of God's light in the world even after their death.


EDIT: Thus, Mary, mother of God, is regarded in a similarly positive light. A very positive one.

I understand if you are like... not going to throw down your old ties and become Orthodox, lol,and I even understand if you want to keep debating me on the topic... But let's not regard this as some kind of pagan god worship or as so ridiculous and absurd.

Originally posted by @jacob-verville
Church traditions has us do these things. As it says in 2 Thess 2:15:

""So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.""

And as it says in Hebrews 12:1:

"Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, we must get rid of every weight and th ...[text shortened]... c... But let's not regard this as some kind of pagan god worship or as so ridiculous and absurd.

How do you know what traditions he was talking about? Does any tradition count?

Speaking with the dead was forbidden by God. It seems to me that God never changes so what was sin then is still sin today.

Originally posted by @eladar
How do you know what traditions he was talking about? Does any tradition count?

Speaking with the dead was forbidden by God. It seems to me that God never changes so what was sin then is still sin today.

That's it, stand firm in your bigotry of anyone not like you, because "God has commanded it!"

Hint: No, he didn't.

Originally posted by @jacob-verville
Church traditions has us do these things. As it says in 2 Thess 2:15:

""So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.""

And as it says in Hebrews 12:1:

"Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, we must get rid of every weight and th ...[text shortened]... c... But let's not regard this as some kind of pagan god worship or as so ridiculous and absurd.

I am a member of the Episcopal Church of America, which is part of the Anglican Communion.

Much of what you say is also held by my church. I've never been clear on the role of the saints, even though my church follows their 'feast days'. Thanks for shining a light and helping me to see these concepts a bit more clearly.

Originally posted by @suzianne
That's it, stand firm in your bigotry of anyone not like you, because "God has commanded it!"

Hint: No, he didn't.

I asked a question. Traditional response from you. Don't answer the question just attempt to belittle anyone who dare question.

Originally posted by @eladar
How do you know what traditions he was talking about? Does any tradition count?

Speaking with the dead was forbidden by God. It seems to me that God never changes so what was sin then is still sin today.

I can tell you that it is quite an old tradition to honor the Saints. You could say that the very act of keeping the letters of the Apostles and making them part of the canon of the Bible is, in its own way, veneration of the Saints and an acknowledgment that their lives were completely touched by God.

Likewise, the writings of Saints after them are very important. Not as important as the Bible, but important nonetheless, and they are well, well preserved.

When people knew the Saints and were familiar with them, they felt that they would join the cloud of witnesses and that they would go to be in Heaven. Having such a love for them, they ask for their prayer sand their help, and there were occurrences after these supplications that led people to believe the Saints can and do still intercede for us on earth, fulfilling the will of God...

Here is a link to some very old material within the Church on Saints:

https://www.catholic.com/tract/the-intercession-of-the-saints

You can hear many people say things like, "I feel my mother looks down on me from heaven," or that their beloved husband or wife that went before them was able to transmit some comfort or feeling of presence from beyond the grave... We believe that there are clouds with this kind of presence.

I think that, believing the words of the Bible, the immortality of the soul, the profound connections we have with our own families... It would make sense for us to think that, just as we will be united again in death, we will also be able to be heard by particularly wise Saints and Angels who look out after us.

This might sound patently absurd to an atheist but it hsouldn't sound absurd to a Christian, and as such a tradition exists, and we have references in our own Bible to the cloud of witnesses... it would seem somehow to even be obstinate to not believe in the importance of the saints.

But I do not mean to disrespect your position. We can disagree respectfully.

Originally posted by @jacob-verville
I can tell you that it is quite an old tradition to honor the Saints. You could say that the very act of keeping the letters of the Apostles and making them part of the canon of the Bible is, in its own way, veneration of the Saints and an acknowledgment that their lives were completely touched by God.

Likewise, the writings of Saints after ...[text shortened]... e of the saints.

But I do not mean to disrespect your position. We can disagree respectfully.

It is an old tradition. Having Christmas trees is also an old tradition. Traditions can be brought into play generations after Christ's death and they would be as you say very old.

Sorry, I don't buy that since we have a Bible of letters written by the Apostles that we should then pray to dead people.

Originally posted by @eladar
It is an old tradition. Having Christmas trees is also an old tradition. Traditions can be brought into play generations after Christ's death and they would be as you say very old.

Sorry, I don't buy that since we have a Bible of letters written by the Apostles that we should then pray to dead people.

Fair enough! We will have to agree to disagree. But since you are a Christian, do feel free to pray on these specific topics and think about them as you read the Bible. I think that you will, at the very least, feel less critical of the Christian traditions that revere the Saints.

There is nothing about trees in the Bible but we use the Christmas tree because it is a fun and harmless cultural symbol that enhances public sentiment... but we do know that the dead Saints are witnesses to us and can pray for us in the afterlife.

God bless.

Originally posted by @jacob-verville
Fair enough! We will have to agree to disagree. But since you are a Christian, do feel free to pray on these specific topics and think about them as you read the Bible. I think that you will, at the very least, feel less critical of the Christian traditions that revere the Saints.

There is nothing about trees in the Bible but we use the Christmas ...[text shortened]... ow that the dead Saints are witnesses to us and can pray for us in the afterlife.

God bless.

Do you believe that after we due that if we are found righteous by Gid that we are given powers that we do nit have here on earth?

If you pray to another person here on earth, will that person hear your prayer? Suppose you pray to your priest. Does your priest hear your prayer? If your priest dies can your priest hear your prayer?

Originally posted by @jacob-verville
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Greetings Jacob, I love the Lord Jesus. My God is the Man Jesus Christ.


There are some interesting passages like Hebrews 12:1 that talk about the great cloud of witnesses. The cloud of witnesses are those Christians who are dead that go on to observe us and surround us.
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Yes, I take Hebrews 12:1 like that too.

We believe in immortal souls, right, and we believe that God has sent angels to us with messages before and all manner of things along these lines...
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Christians should be careful not to be distracted from Christ. How very little is said in the New Testament about angels involvement with believers.

I would not dare say that no mention is made about angels in regards to Christians. I would say the greater emphasis by an exponential margin is about the believers' union with Christ. Do you agree?

Ie. Paul cautioning the Colossians not to be led into worship of angels based on fleshly imaginations.

"Let no one defraud you by judging you unworthy of your prize, in self-chosen lowliness and the worship of angels, dwelling on the things which he has seen, vainly puffed up by his mind set on the flesh." (Col. 2:18)

"Come back from pre-occupation with angels to Christ." is the tone. Angels are real. But do not be sidetracked away from Christ because of them.


I do not think it is a stretch at all to believe the mother of God, Mary, who is presented as such in the Bible, would also have a special role as a Saint and be a member of this cloud of witnesses.
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She has no special role Jacob.
She was a saint.
But I am a saint also.

All those who have been placed in a holy position in Christ as sanctified and called "saints".

Here we see all the disciples were SAINTS.

"Paul, a called apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, and Sosthenes the brother,

To the church of God which is in Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, the called SAINTS, with all those who call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, [whi] is theirs and ours." (1 For. 1:1,2)

All of the believers in Jesus Christ in the church in Corinth were the called "saints". And some of them were in poor spiritual shape. They were still the called saints.

Not only were all the Christians in Corinth then "saints". All those who call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ in every place were also saints.

The tradition of elevating certain Christians to "Sainthood" is not biblical.

Mary was sister in the Lord. She was not called "above woman" but "among women". We should not pray to Mary or worship Mary. We should turn our hearts fully towards Christ the Head of the Body of the members of His Body.


Saying that this kind of thing is like... just synthesizing paganism with Christianity... even when this is an important, 2,000 year old aspect of the culture of Christianity seems very dismissive and precisely what atheist detractors say about us.
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Must cont. discussion latter Jacob.

Jacob,

What do you make of Jesus' irreverence for Mary here?

From Matthew 12

While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”