Materliasm and the cult of self

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
it could have been prevented by a proper view of self by cultivating spirituality, but nooooo, you think that by presenting the ailment as being part of something complex it necessitates that the solution must also be complicated, an epic failure, anxiety and depression are spiritual problems and can be treated spiritually, the folly of the materiali ...[text shortened]... k, you are simply taking care of the symptoms and never finding the root cause of the problem.

This is the biggest load of straw heaped upon more straw I've ever read. My brother, as I've mentioned before is a drunk and drugs counsellor; he's a recovered alcoholic, he is also an atheist and as you would term a 'rampant materialist'. The premise of his job is to find the root cause of people's addiction.

You live in this strange black and white world, when the world is in fact one big shade of grey. Yet again, you can't seem to see past your presumptuous card board cut out stereotypes.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
depression takes many forms and may be attributed to many causes, homoeopathic doctors are successful primarily because they treat the whole person rather than merely addressing the symptoms. I cannot respect your assertion of a holistic approach in the medical profession, 'just take this and you will be better', is the general approach. Depressed? here, take this.

I cannot respect your assertion of a holistic approach in the medical profession, 'just take this and you will be better', is the general approach. Depressed? here, take this.

maybe you have crap lazy doctors where you live but the nhs advice is to try various types of therapy to see what suits the individual best, cognitive behavioral therapy (cbt), psychotherapy and counselling are all non drug related methods often used. doctors usually prefer to only use drugs if the person is in danger of self harm.


edit: could you give me some of the main spiritual reasons depression is caused and the key methods to fix it?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
definition: materialism, the ideology that there is no reality other than that which is material.

manifestation: self absorption, narcissism, desire for immediate gratification, possessions more important than personal development, tangible objects used to signify success and influence other values, greed is intrinsically good and self pampering t ...[text shortened]... and anti Biblical

http://www.acrwebsite.org/search/view-conference-proceedings.aspx?Id=12206

Sorry, but not one of those manifestations can be thought to reasonably follow from the definition of materialism you provided.

It would be like one saying that theism is the ideology that some god(s) exists, and then going on to say that the manifestations of theism are general delusion, holier-than-thou personal gratification, pompous insufferably anthropocentric attitude that humans are the darlings of the cosmic order, unrealistic future fantasy lands more important than the here and now, ego pampering therapeutic.

Now, no one would have reason to take that account of theism seriously, right?

Originally posted by Proper Knob
This is the biggest load of straw heaped upon more straw I've ever read. My brother, as I've mentioned before is a drunk and drugs counsellor; he's a recovered alcoholic, he is also an atheist and as you would term a 'rampant materialist'. The premise of his job is to find the root cause of people's addiction.

You live in this strange black and white ...[text shortened]... . Yet again, you can't seem to see past your presumptuous card board cut out stereotypes.

many persons have been helped to overcome all manner of addictions by the application of Biblical principles and i do not respect your assertions of stereotyping, in fact i have avoided making broad generalisations in this thread at very turn.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
[b]I cannot respect your assertion of a holistic approach in the medical profession, 'just take this and you will be better', is the general approach. Depressed? here, take this.

maybe you have crap lazy doctors where you live but the nhs advice is to try various types of therapy to see what suits the individual best, cognitive behavioral therap ...[text shortened]... give me some of the main spiritual reasons depression is caused and the key methods to fix it?[/b]

really, how is spirituality encouraged and cultivated in these holistic sessions, you have not said? and for your information i recently attended a series of interviews with a psychotherapist, not for myself, but on behalf of someone else to provide intimate and detailed background information, she had no concept of spirituality nor did she encourage its cultivation and while she did ask some interesting questions, she offered as far as i could discern, no tangible solutions.

I have not said that depression is a consequence of a lack of spirituality but i would not put it beyond a coyote like you to construe and twist that i have, when will you learn that such transparent traps will not catch the road runner, why not try some free bird seed instead!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
really, how is spirituality encouraged and cultivated in these holistic sessions, you have not said? and for your information i recently attended a series of interviews with a psychotherapist, not for myself, but on behalf of someone else to provide intimate and detailed background information, she had no concept of spirituality nor did she encourage ...[text shortened]... such transparent traps will not catch the road runner, why not try some free bird seed instead!

really, how is spirituality encouraged and cultivated in these holistic sessions, you have not said?

i never mentioned spirituality in holistic sessions. i mentioned that the nhs uses many other methods other than drugs.


I have not said that depression is a consequence of a lack of spirituality

i didnt say you did. you claimed - "anxiety and depression are spiritual problems and can be treated spiritually" and in return i asked - "could you give me some of the main spiritual reasons depression is caused and the key methods to fix it?"

so to re-iterate the question - if anxiety and depression are spiritual problems what are the main spiritual reasons depression is caused and what are the key methods to fix it?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
[b]really, how is spirituality encouraged and cultivated in these holistic sessions, you have not said?

i never mentioned spirituality in holistic sessions. i mentioned that the nhs uses many other methods other than drugs.


I have not said that depression is a consequence of a lack of spirituality

i didnt say you did. you claimed are the main spiritual reasons depression is caused and what are the key methods to fix it?[/b]

i have not said that depression is caused by spirituality or a lack of it and you did insinuate a causation, here are your exact words, AGAIN,

some of the main spiritual reasons depression is caused

i have merely asserted that as spiritual problems they can be treated spiritually, your question is therefore a dishonest attempt to misconstrue my intent, i will ignore it, i do not respect dishonesty which you have demonstrated now on two counts. I have also not ruled out the use of drugs, before you get a chance to misconstrue that as well.

so spirituality is not encouraged by the NHS, can you tell us why not?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
many persons have been helped to overcome all manner of addictions by the application of Biblical principles and i do not respect your assertions of stereotyping, in fact i have avoided making broad generalisations in this thread at very turn.

You've avoided making broad generalisations? What's this from the previous page if not a broad generalisation? -

the folly of the materialist is that in reducing everything to a material level they fail to treat the whole person, meh, we'll just give them drugs, that will sort of the electro chemical impulses going through the synapses, meh we'll simply hand out mood altering drugs, that will deal with anxiety and look, you are simply taking care of the symptoms and never finding the root cause of the problem.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i have not said that depression is caused by spirituality or a lack of it and you did insinuate a causation, here are your exact words, AGAIN,

some of the main spiritual reasons depression is caused

i have merely asserted that as spiritual problems they can be treated spiritually, your question is therefore a dishonest attempt to misconstrue ...[text shortened]... construe that as well.

so spirituality is not encouraged by the NHS, can you tell us why not?

maybe im not following you here. you said 'depression is a spiritual problem', you seem to be saying (ill say 'seem' because if ive not understood you ill be called dishonest) spiritual reasons are not the cause of depression. so this would indicate its not a spiritual problem as the problem lies elsewhere the spirit is the thing effected, not the cause. yet you say its a spiritual problem?? can you understand my confusion?

edit: sorry, missed your question.

most hospitals have a room of worship and a chaplin. what more do you want?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
maybe im not following you here. you said 'depression is a spiritual problem', you seem to be saying (ill say 'seem' because if ive not understood you ill be called dishonest) spiritual reasons are not the cause of depression. so this would indicate its not a spiritual problem as the problem lies elsewhere the spirit is the thing effected, not the cause ...[text shortened]... our question.

most hospitals have a room of worship and a chaplin. what more do you want?

what has a Chaplin and a room set aside for prayer/mediation got to do with spirituality? nada! you are unlikely to get any spiritual guidance from a Chaplin, i know, i have tried and about as much from an empty room, let us take two Biblical principles and let us see if it has practical application, in the real world,

(Proverbs 17:22) A heart that is joyful does good as a curer, but a spirit that is stricken makes the bones dry.

(Proverbs 14:30) A calm heart is the life of the fleshly organism, but jealousy is rottenness to the bones.


Concerning a calm heart versus one given to anger, the Journal of the American College of Cardiology states: “Current findings suggest a harmful association between anger and hostility and CHD [coronary heart disease].” Hence, the Journal notes: “Successful prevention and treatment of CHD might involve . . . not only conventional physical and pharmacological therapies, but also psychological management focusing on anger and hostility.” Simply put, a calm heart fosters good health, just as the Bible says.

Similar positive effects spring from a joyful heart. Dr. Derek Cox, a health official in Scotland, stated in a BBC News report: “If you are happy you are likely in the future to have less in the way of physical illness than those who are unhappy.” The same report stated: “Happier people also have greater protection against things like heart disease and stroke.”

Is it not so? Is it not practical?

Originally posted by sonship
The ironic thing is that you may not see how materialism has so fixed itself in Jehovah's Witness theology.

The Gospel speaks of the indwelling of Christ as the life giving Spirit. But you scoff and don't want to hear anything about it.

You want to hear about a garden of Eden like earthly kingdom with nice animals and nice trees and a lot of beautif ...[text shortened]... e no ear for it. Instead you want to know all about the blessed physical earth in the kingdom.

Good post. Nice length, no links, to the point while making a very good point about how the JW's do speak of heavenly affairs , their ideas and imagery remain rooted in the physical. Indeed I have not come across any solid JW philosophy containing actual non-material ideas.

In this case I agree with your stance, while disagreeing with you on other points 🙂

It seems as if you actually try to engage the "mechanics" of spirituality, whereas Robbie, while many times leading off with his own view, will systematically re-align any follow-up questions/comments with JW dogma, which has more of a shallowness about it than... say.. your comments .

Originally posted by Proper Knob
You've avoided making broad generalisations? What's this from the previous page if not a broad generalisation? -

the folly of the materialist is that in reducing everything to a material level they fail to treat the whole person, meh, we'll just give them drugs, that will sort of the electro chemical impulses going through the synapses, meh we' ...[text shortened]... simply taking care of the symptoms and never finding the root cause of the problem.

no i dont think so and therefore i cannot respect your assertion, sorry dude, no disrespect to you personally, but i need to believe in you.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Good post. Nice length, no links, to the point while making a very good point about how the JW's do speak of heavenly affairs , their ideas and imagery remain rooted in the physical. Indeed I have not come across any solid JW philosophy containing actual non-material ideas.

In this respect I agree with your stance, while disagreeing with you on many omments with JW dogma, which has more of a shallowness about it than... say.. your comments .

I simply dont believe in you, your assertions are not real enough for me, i cannot respect that, sorry, when they start to get real, maybe i will respect them, but until then, well, its just not the real thing, too many baseless self certified opinions, not any substance, never any substance, no disrespect , but i dont believe in you dude, sorry.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I simply dont believe in you, your assertions are not real enough for me, i cannot respect that, sorry, when they start to get real, maybe i will respect them, but until then, well, its just not the real thing, too many baseless self certified opinions, not any substance, never any substance, no disrespect , but i dont believe in you dude, sorry.

What are you on about Robbie? Sheeesh.

And this on the back of the highest ever score by a number 11 ian ANY test match!! As you should know, it was made by Ashton Agar who nearly single-handedly turned the fortunes of a nation and possibly the whole Ashes campaign while at the same time inventing a new term : "Agar "-noun. Fomerly known as a doing a "Bradbury" (named after the Australian Olympic ice skater who had the whole field fall in front of him while he skated across the finish line and finished first). How 24 hours can change a (debuting) young mans life...he's knocked off records that have stood for a hundred years,etc.,etc.

Now in the spirit of kicking some English butt , please dont dismiss my credibility outright like you just tried to do in that post. Instead I implore you to wait while I have read the rest of the thread and commented further. I actually share your basic view of those who cling to the physical, I would just put it differently 🙂

Anyway, I'll post here later, and then you can conedem me more fully, if you still think it's warranted

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I simply dont believe in you, your assertions are not real enough for me, i cannot respect that, sorry, when they start to get real, maybe i will respect them, but until then, well, its just not the real thing, too many baseless self certified opinions, not any substance, never any substance, no disrespect , but i dont believe in you dude, sorry.

never any substance? I beg to disagree,but not in this thread. Being without substance seems to be in keeping with the spirit of the thread 🙂