1. Standard membersonship
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    13 Sep '17 12:091 edit
    What is really the lesson being taught here as Jesus speaks to a Gentile women.

    " But He answered and said, It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the little dogs."


    Is the main lesson here that one ethnic group of people is justified by Jesus in despising another ethnic group as "dogs" - ie. far below themselves in dignity, humanity, worth ?

    I don't think this section Matthew 15:21-28 has that as its intended point.

    Engage.
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    13 Sep '17 12:19
    Originally posted by @sonship
    What is really the lesson being taught here as Jesus speaks to a Gentile women.

    [b] " But He answered and said, It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the little dogs."


    Is the main lesson here that one ethnic group of people is justified by Jesus in despising another ethnic group as "dogs" - ie. far below the ...[text shortened]...
    I don't think this section Matthew 15:21-28 has that as its intended point.

    Engage.[/b]
    Why would Jesus liken her to a dog? What purpose would he have in doing that?

    Perhaps to make a statement for modern times and modern values.
  3. Standard membersonship
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    13 Sep '17 12:201 edit
    The whole section:

    "And Jesus went from there and withdrew into the parts of Tyre and Sidon."


    Jesus has been forced by opposition to withdraw. This corresponds with Him saying the food on the table has been knocked off and fallen to the ground.

    He came first to the land Israel. Because of their rejection of His messianic ministry, at this point He withdraws to "the parts of Tyre and Sidon" - a Gentile region.

    And a Gentile woman comes to him speaking to Him as if she were a Jew, addressing Him as the Son of David.

    "And behold, a Canaanite woman came out from those borders and cried out, saying, Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David! My daughter suffers terribly from demon possession." (v.22)


    Now I don't know this for certain. But I have a suspicion that in the past this woman may have uttered her own disdain for the Jews. I don't know that though. But if she did God would know. And God was embodied now in Jesus Christ.

    At any rate, Jesus ignores her for some reason. I think it is because she was approaching Him on the grounds of being an Israelite, calling Him the Son of David the Messianic King of the restored kingdom of Israel.

    "But He did not answer her a word, and His disciples came and implored Him, saying, Send her away, for she is crying out after us." (v.23)


    Let's examine further.
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    13 Sep '17 12:25
    Originally posted by @sonship
    The whole section:

    [b] "And Jesus went from there and withdrew into the parts of Tyre and Sidon."


    Jesus has been forced by opposition to withdraw. This corresponds with Him saying the food on the table has been knocked off and fallen to the ground.

    He came first to the land Israel. Because of their rejection of His messianic ...[text shortened]... Send her away, for she is crying out after us." (v.23) [/b] [/quote]

    Let's examine further.[/b]
    You hide behind your examine to evade the question.
  5. Standard membersonship
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    13 Sep '17 12:291 edit
    First the remainder of the passage.

    "But He answered and said, I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (v.24)

    But she came and worshipped Him, saying, Lord, help me ! [v.25)


    This is a turning point. Now she addresses Him not as "Son of David" but as 'Lord". I think that this is what turns the situation.

    'But He answered and said, It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the little dogs. (v.26)

    And she said, Yes, Lord, for even the little dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from thier masters' table. (v.27)

    Then Jesus answered and said to her, O woman, great is your faith! Be it done to you as you wish. And her daughter was healed from that hour.." (v.28)


    Comments ?
  6. Standard memberKellyJay
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    13 Sep '17 12:32
    Originally posted by @eladar
    Why would Jesus liken her to a dog? What purpose would he have in doing that?

    Perhaps to make a statement for modern times and modern values.
    He told her a parable pointing out to her who He was there for at that time. God brought Jesus into the world through the Hebrew people so they were first, anyone not Jewish would have been in her position. He wasn't insulting her, He gave her an in, to receive from Him, which she did.
  7. Standard membersonship
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    13 Sep '17 12:411 edit
    The rejection of the religious power structures in the land of Israel caused their own heavenly King to depart into a Gentile region. This rejection from His own nation gives opportunity for those in the districts of Tyre and Sidon, the Gentile world, to contact Him.

    Matthew constructed his gospel in a very doctrinal way. Major doctrinal points are alluded to in his record. And here the underlying theme is that because the Jews rejected Christ, His salvation went to the Gentiles who had faith.

    Cont. below.
  8. SubscriberSuzianne
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    13 Sep '17 13:521 edit
    Originally posted by @kellyjay
    He told her a parable pointing out to her who He was there for at that time. God brought Jesus into the world through the Hebrew people so they were first, anyone not Jewish would have been in her position. He wasn't insulting her, He gave her an in, to receive from Him, which she did.
    This is right. "Son of David" recalls the covenant with Israel. A woman of Canaan would not be part of that, she was a gentile. Calling him "Lord" was indeed the turning point, as this was recognition of his Lordship over all people, and the "whosoever" of John 3:16.

    Also, to Eladar, when Jesus called her a dog, yes, a common slur towards gentiles, but more to the point, the word used refers not to "dogs in the street", but to "dogs in the home", "little dogs", like a pet, a part of the family lesser than children, but still a part of the family. This is how he was referring to her, especially after she called him Lord. By using this precise word, Jesus was inviting her to a greater expression of her faith.

    This section is about faith, and the persistent faith as a mother for her children. "O woman, great is thy faith".
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    13 Sep '17 18:43
    Originally posted by @kellyjay
    He told her a parable pointing out to her who He was there for at that time. God brought Jesus into the world through the Hebrew people so they were first, anyone not Jewish would have been in her position. He wasn't insulting her, He gave her an in, to receive from Him, which she did.
    It was not a parable.
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    13 Sep '17 18:45
    Originally posted by @suzianne
    This is right. "Son of David" recalls the covenant with Israel. A woman of Canaan would not be part of that, she was a gentile. Calling him "Lord" was indeed the turning point, as this was recognition of his Lordship over all people, and the "whosoever" of John 3:16.

    Also, to Eladar, when Jesus called her a dog, yes, a common slur towards gentiles, b ...[text shortened]... ut faith, and the persistent faith as a mother for her children. "O woman, great is thy faith".
    So it is OK to call people dogs if you mean the pet that you own? Is this what you are saying?
  11. Standard memberKellyJay
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    13 Sep '17 19:30
    Originally posted by @eladar
    It was not a parable.
    Well she wasn't a dog, now was she? No one was eating?
    He was relating the current situation in a story form.
    It may not fit your view that Jesus purposely was being mean spirited.
    So why wasn't it a parable, because she understood it?
  12. Standard memberKellyJay
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    13 Sep '17 19:32
    Originally posted by @eladar
    So it is OK to call people dogs if you mean the pet that you own? Is this what you are saying?
    If I talked about you with the affection I have for my dogs, it would not be an insult to you.
  13. SubscriberSuzianne
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    13 Sep '17 20:242 edits
    Originally posted by @eladar
    So it is OK to call people dogs if you mean the pet that you own? Is this what you are saying?
    No, you twit.

    SHE knew what he was saying, why don't YOU??

    She demonstrated that she, even a gentile, recognized him as Lord, the Messiah, even though many of his own people, the Jews, did not. She was able to recognize him because of her faith. And she was rewarded.
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    13 Sep '17 20:45
    Originally posted by @kellyjay
    Well she wasn't a dog, now was she? No one was eating?
    He was relating the current situation in a story form.
    It may not fit your view that Jesus purposely was being mean spirited.
    So why wasn't it a parable, because she understood it?
    He likened her and her people to a dog.
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    13 Sep '17 20:47
    Originally posted by @suzianne
    No, you twit.

    SHE knew what he was saying, why don't YOU??

    She demonstrated that she, even a gentile, recognized him as Lord, the Messiah, even though many of his own people, the Jews, did not. She was able to recognize him because of her faith. And she was rewarded.
    She was simply willing to be called a dog. She was not being proud. She wanted a miracle and didn't care about being called a dog as long as she could get the miracle.
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