Meat Eating

@rajk999 said
Lol, you are a comedian. Did you read what I wrote? Why are you arguing with yourself?

It's the way I tell 'em. So what do you reckon then, Mister Cherry Picker ( 'we all do it' Actually we don't) , am I going to suffer in the flames of eternal damnation, or be forced to eat rice pudding every day (a far worse fate) ? Or maybe listen to Cliff Richard songs from death to eternity? And all because I don't suffer from godophobia?

@indonesia-phil said
It's the way I tell 'em. So what do you reckon then, Mister Cherry Picker ( 'we all do it' Actually we don't) , am I going to suffer in the flames of eternal damnation, or be forced to eat rice pudding every day (a far worse fate) ? Or maybe listen to Cliff Richard songs from death to eternity? And all because I don't suffer from godophobia?

I thought I already answered that. Since you not understanding what I write, here is what Jesus said about those who will suffer damnation in eternal fire, and why they met this fate

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,
Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire,
prepared for the devil and his angels:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat:
I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in:
naked, and ye clothed me not:
sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
(Matthew 25:41-43 KJV)

Jesus addressed your concern. Hope you listen.

@ghost-of-a-duke saidWhy would an omniscient and omnibenevolent God require animal sacrifices?

Ive no idea.

We are discussing what is written, not wether what is written is right or God is right.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
The point is, not only was that His preference at the beginning, it is also His preference at the end. Take for example Revelation 22:2: "On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations." (There are others).

So at both ends, God's preferenc ...[text shortened]... God currently expects that but because that was His divine intent, at the beginning and for the end.

Completely correct...

Meat eating, like even marriage and divorce and slavery, were concessions to enable people to live in a world where not everyone can practice some form of asceticism, and where practicality itself necessitates some of these actions.

I always think a poignant portrayal of Heaven is a place where the Lion will lay down with the lamb...

What makes us think that we will be killing & eating lions & lambs in Heaven, when these two now dwell in peace?

@philokalia said
Completely correct...

Meat eating, like even marriage and divorce and slavery, were concessions to enable people to live in a world where not everyone can practice some form of asceticism, and where practicality itself necessitates some of these actions.

I always think a poignant portrayal of Heaven is a place where the Lion will lay down with th ...[text shortened]... s think that we will be killing & eating lions & lambs in Heaven, when these two now dwell in peace?

It is not”completely correct”, what GoaD wrote is (in my opinion) partially correct. To be clear...

What is correct:
- the intention of creation is that there be life and no death. This is the higher order of things and not the premise that nothing shall eat meat.

What is incorrect
- this idea that eating meat is somehow unrighteousness, morally wrong, unhealthy or whatever other colourful nuance people want to transpose onto it.
- God demanded animal sacrifices and commanded that Christians “kill and eat”. This cannot be overlooked in a desire to affiliate the humanistic ideal of vegetarianism with the constructs of a biblical Eden.

- Separately (and what seemed to confuse GoaD on the previous page) from an evolutionary perspective we are designed, like all carnivorous and omnivorous predators, to eat meat. And again we should not allow our wholesome desire to protect animals detract from this fact.

Separately again:
- we are an animal loving species, certainly in some societies although not in others, and we have a self-deterministic right to peruse a vegetarian dietary strategy if we choose to do so. However this wholesome right does not affirm nor detract from the intentions of the God of the bible. The landscape of wider text and narrative simply doesn’t support it.

@divegeester said
It is not”completely correct”, what GoaD wrote is (in my opinion) partially correct. To be clear...

What is correct:
- the intention of creation is that there be life and no death. This is the higher order of things and not the premise that nothing shall eat meat.

What is incorrect
- this idea that eating meat is somehow unrighteousness, morally wrong, unhealthy ...[text shortened]... ntions of the God of the bible. The landscape of wider text and narrative simply doesn’t support it.

There are two distinct camps and the problem here is that you are trying to plant a foot in each of them.

In the world of science and evolution (a world in which I inhabit) man evolved as a species and has 'always' been a meat eater,

In the world of the Bible man originated in the garden of Eden where God initially prescribed a vegetarian diet and where man did 'not' eat meat. (God has indeed made concessions since then and allowed man to eat meat, but only after his fall from perfection).

Your position makes no sense as you simultaneously recognise man in Eden as a non-meat eater and then say, "from an evolutionary perspective we are designed, like all carnivorous and omnivorous predators, to eat meat."

So which is it?! Did we start as non-meat eaters in Eden or are we designed to be carnivorous? For the love of God, pick one! - Nodding towards both camps makes your positional nonsensical.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
There are two distinct camps and the problem here is that you are trying to plant a foot in each of them.

In the world of science and evolution (a world in which I inhabit) man evolved as a species and has 'always' been a meat eater,

In the world of the Bible man originated in the garden of Eden where God initially prescribed a vegetarian diet and where man did ...[text shortened]... rous? For the love of God, pick one! - Nodding towards both camps makes your positional nonsensical.

I’m not interested in your repeated attempts to turn an academic discussion about what is or isn’t evident in the bible, or what is or isn’t evident within the concept of evolution (as in relation to vegetarianism), into a deflection about my personal faith/beliefs. Although I can see why you are keen to do so.

@divegeester said
I’m not interested in your repeated attempts to turn an academic discussion about what is or isn’t evident in the bible, or what is or isn’t evident within the concept of evolution (as in relation to vegetarianism), into a deflection about my personal faith/beliefs. Although I can see why you are keen to do so.

You dodge all the pertinent questions.

This is particularly hypocritical as you have been trying to put Suzianne's personal beliefs under the microscope for months.

If it is ok to ask her how she fits evolution into the biblical concept of creation, why is it not ok to ask how you fit evolution into the biblical concept of Adam and Eve not eating meat?

Good luck with that one.

@rajk999 said
I thought I already answered that. Since you not understanding what I write, here is what Jesus said about those who will suffer damnation in eternal fire, and why they met this fate

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,
Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire,
prepared for the devil and his angels:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no mea ...[text shortened]... nd ye visited me not.
(Matthew 25:41-43 KJV)

Jesus addressed your concern. Hope you listen.

I'm not concerned, I'd just like to get a clear, unambiguous Christian perspective, which is a bit like shoveling smoke. In a previous post (the one where you call me a fool) you imply that atheists can get a pass upstairs if they otherwise lead good lives.
This last post seems to contradict this, since I clearly don't give Christ anything, and I never visited him in prison. (What was he in prison for, Messiah impersonation? ) (He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy.' )
Please clarify.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
You dodge all the pertinent questions.

This is particularly hypocritical as you have been trying to put Suzianne's personal beliefs under the microscope for months.

If it is ok to ask her how she fits evolution into the biblical concept of creation, why is it not ok to ask how you fit evolution into the biblical concept of Adam and Eve not eating meat?

Good luck with that one.

I’m more than happy to discuss my beliefs and have been doing so openly in this forum for over a decade. Please start a thread on the topic of ”how divegeester fits evolution into the biblical concept of creation”, and let’s see how it goes there.

What I am not going to allow you to do here, now, is deflect from this discussion about what is evident in the bible, or what is or isn’t evident within the concept of evolution (as in relation to vegetarianism), into a deflection about my personal faith/beliefs.

As I said, based on how the previous exchanges on this topic went I can see why you are keen to steer the conversation away from what we were discussing and over to your one of your cliquey buddies axe-grinding.



Edit: oh, no luck required, thanks.

@divegeester said
What I am not going to allow you to do here, now, is deflect from this discussion about what is evident in the bible, or what is or isn’t evident within the concept of evolution (as in relation to vegetarianism), into a deflection about my personal faith/beliefs.

As I said, based on how the previous exchanges on this topic went I can see why you are keen to steer the ...[text shortened]... nd over to your one of your cliquey buddies axe-grinding.



Edit: oh, no luck required, thanks.

There is no deflection. This thread is about meat-eating. You have been asked to explain how you simultaneously claim man has always been evolutionarily carnivorous while still adhering to man being a non-meat eater in the Garden of Eden. This is a clear contradiction.

If you were an atheist you could indeed say your view on the biblical account is purely academic. But you are not an atheist. You are a Christian and we are talking about scripture, the word of God. If you are assigning this part of scripture as fiction, then say so.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
This thread is about meat-eating.

Correct. It is not about my personal faith.

Although I have demonstrated that you are, at least in part, wrong about what you claim is evident in the bible, and wrong about what is or isn’t evident within the concept of evolution (as in relation to meat eating and vegetarianism... I do think you should try to stick to the topic in hand and not try to turn attention to things personal in an effort to deflect.

If you feel that you cannot resist this urge and you absolutely must rake over my personal beliefs in this vain attempt to satisfy your desire to exact some sort of revenge for what you regard as me picking on your online playmate Suzianne, then do feel free to start a new thread on the matter and see what interest you get.

@indonesia-phil said
I'm not concerned, I'd just like to get a clear, unambiguous Christian perspective, which is a bit like shoveling smoke. In a previous post (the one where you call me a fool) you imply that atheists can get a pass upstairs if they otherwise lead good lives.
This last post seems to contradict this, since I clearly don't give Christ anything, and I never visited him i ...[text shortened]... n for, Messiah impersonation? ) (He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy.' )
Please clarify.

First, the bible called you are fool. The answer to your question comes in the very next verse

Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. (Matthew 25:44-45 KJV)

The single most critical requirement for Jesus to accept someone into the Kingdom of God is righteousness, and this all centers around brotherly love. According to Christ this shows that you love God and love Him.

Yes, fools [and atheists] will enter the Kingdom of God, and so will murders and adulterers and sinners of all types. Jesus forgives, and man should repent and live righteously.

@rajk999 said
Yes, fools [and atheists] will enter the Kingdom of God, and so will murders and adulterers and sinners of all types. Jesus forgives, and man should repent and live righteously.

1 Corinthians 6:9,10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Embolden mine

You have a fools twisted perception of what the scriptures teach.

@secondson said
1 Corinthians 6:9,10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the ...[text shortened]... ngdom of God[/b]. Embolden mine

You have a fools twisted perception of what the scriptures teach.

Are you saying that Abraham, Issac, Jacob, David and Solomon will not inherit the Kingdom of God? If they will in fact inherit the Kingdom, then your church preaches a pile of nonsense. Between them they must have committed all the offenses you listed. Something is missing from your doctrine because Jesus preached one thing and your church has gone astray, preaching the doctrine of men.