Originally posted by CalJustI could be mistaken, but Caljust I think you are the the first Christian** I've seen in this forum who has stood up and contended against this horrible teaching.
I need to underscore dive's post to say that there are many, many of us, who value and treasure the truths of the Bible, and who find this doctrine repugnant and grossly insulting to both God and all Christians.
In particular, the two main "justifications" for eternal hellfire most often quoted, i.e. That "God does not send anybody to hell; you send yours ...[text shortened]... free offer of Salvation", are the two worst arguments possible, and the two most easily refuted.
**other than myself of course.
Originally posted by divegeesterI think Suzianne also rejects it but she is usually too busy trying to land hooks and jabs on certain posters' chins to let theological or spiritual principle stand in her way. 😵
I could be mistaken, but Caljust I think you are the the first Christian** I've seen in this forum who has stood up and contended against this horrible teaching.
**other than myself of course.
02 Jul 15
Originally posted by FMFYes you are correct she is an annihilationist I believe. Although she doesn't seem to mind other Christians promoting eternal suffering.
I think Suzianne also rejects it but she is usually too busy trying to land hooks and jabs on certain posters' chins to let theological or spiritual principle stand in her way. 😵
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
02 Jul 15
Originally posted by divegeesterI do not "promote" eternal suffering.
Yes you are correct she is an annihilationist I believe. Although she doesn't seem to mind other Christians promoting eternal suffering.
I try to be faithful to the whole word of God without prejudice or partiality.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
02 Jul 15
Originally posted by divegeesterThat peace of Christ is very important.
You still haven't explained what you received from God, other than peace that has enabled yuo to take this teaching which you admit you don't like and convert it in your mind into perfect justice.
Nor have you responded to at least 6 requests to the question about me pouring my heart out and being reassured by God that there is eternal punishment.
And I did not fellowship with you about pouring our hearts out to God so that we could pour out to each other arguments about it.
Originally posted by sonshipYou keep appealing to this impartiality you think you have, frankly you are either deluding your self or lying.
I try to be faithful to the whole word of God without prejudice or partiality.
"The lost shall be hung in chains of eternal punishment as evidence to those on other worlds"
Your words which are completely fabricated non-scriptural hokum.
02 Jul 15
Originally posted by sonshipYou have said that the teaching is essential for many reasons including:
I do not "promote" eternal suffering.
~ Bringing the lost to Christ
~ Driving fear into the unrepentant
~ Helping you feel better about those who persecute you
If you are not promoting the teaching then you are hardly keeping in the closet are you?
02 Jul 15
Originally posted by sonshipIf I pour my heart out to god about this teaching (which I feel disinclined to do as it doesn't even get on my "things I need to pray about" list), and I find God telling me to tell sonship he is mistaken, what will you do?
That peace of Christ is very important.
And I did not fellowship with you about pouring our hearts out to God so that we could pour out to each other arguments about it.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Originally posted by divegeesterYou keep appealing to this impartiality you think you have, frankly you are either deluding your self or lying.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I seek, by God's grace, to be faithful to the New Testament exhortation of (1Tim. 5:21). But it is a small thing that I be judged by you on this. I do not say I have arrived or am already made perfect.
I do have some fears concerning living unto Christ.
You're not one of them though.
"The lost shall be hung in chains of eternal punishment as evidence to those on other worlds"
Your words which are completely fabricated non-scriptural hokum.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.) The eternal bonds or eternal chains in which some particularly evil angels are confined in a reference to Jude 6.
"And angels who did not keep their own principality but abandoned their own dwelling place, He has kept in ETERNAL BONDS under gloom for the judgment of the great day."
Eternal bonds or eternal chains for these evil angels is scriptural. Isn't it?
2.) That some lost sinners will be a display of "everlasting shame" or "eternal contempt " is also not my invention but a reference to Daniel 12:2.
"And many of those who are sleeping in the dust of the ground will awake, some to life eternal and some to reproach, to eternal contempt."
If you argue that "eternal contempt" is temporary concerning these lost, then you should argue that "life eternal" is also temporary to those saved.
If you're not ready to justify that interpretation then why slander me as inventing something unbiblical ?
And if you want to fondly continue to say to the effect "sonship teaches people are hung up in eternal chains of torture to be on display" I would appreciate it if you would QUOTE that old post from which you first derived that criticism.
And I remind you of what I said not long ago.
In this debate the more one believer explains why he accepts the word of God on eternal punishment, the more the critic attempts to portray him as EAGER that people be damned.
And for that dishonest reason you use terms like "promote" and otherwise caricature me as sadistically delighted over those who are lost.
Do you think YOU care for the unbeliever more than Jesus cares?
Put everlasting perdition aside for the moment.
Just answer me that question.
Do you think YOU are more burdened and more concerned for the unbeliever than Jesus Christ is ?
A Yes or a No will do it.
Originally posted by sonshipIt's not a "reference to Jude" and you claiming it is now it when it wasn't then, is dishonesty sonship. The "lost" we were and are talking about are human beings, as to those on other worlds, well we still don't know what you are going on about but as you have never retracted the comment and continue to defend it we can only presume that you stand by it and believe that people on other planets are watching the suffering in eternal hell also. Throwing some tenuous Daniel in there doesn't help either - it's as though you are pretending that it does. As I said your phrase is fabricated hokum.
[b]You keep appealing to this impartiality you think you have, frankly you are either deluding your self or lying.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I seek, by God's grace, to be faithful to the New Testament exhortation of (1Tim. 5:21). But it is a small thing that I be judged by you on this. I do not say I ...[text shortened]... ened and more concerned for the unbeliever than Jesus Christ is ?
A Yes or a No will do it.[/b]
You do not present the Bible with impartiality, you constantly put your sectist mumbo-jumbo spin on to it and that phrase is a poignant piece of evidence that you do. You are now saying that I'm slandering you - unbelievable. Attack is the best defence, is that it? YOU are the one who comes out with this erroneous rubbish, not me. Why are you asking me to find it? You've done this before; are you saying you didn't say it? Are you also going to deny that you said the teaching of eternal suffering helps you forgive those who mistreat you? That not scriptural either is it? You aren't the only one who's read the Bible you know.
My contention is that you and all the other hell preachers are NOT "accepting the word of God" on the teaching of eternal punishment, you are accepting a lie. You sound like Galveston75, bleating about being "persecuted" for talking utter nonsense.
So what is my "dishonest reason"? Are you saying that me disagreeing with you and accusing you of promoting a doctrine of death is me being dishonest? You do promote it it! You have spent hundred and hundreds of posts promoting it to other believers in this forum. I'm not going to sit here and watch you do it, simple. It is a grotesque horror and a sleight on the character of our God. If you stop defending it, I'll stop attacking it. How's that.
"Do I care more for the unbeliever than Jesus?" Oh dear me. So Jesus cares more for the unbeliever...therefore...eternal suffering must be true.
You are the master of circular reasoning, I imagine you spending most of your time not pouring your heart out for truth, but sifting through the scriptures looking for these tenuous strings of scripture to help tie together this nonsense teaching about the loving God of mercy God keeping people who have rejected him supernaturally alive for eternity so he can toture them...for eternity.
I look forward to the thumbs down from Suzianne.
😉
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Originally posted by divegeesterIt's not a "reference to Jude" and you claiming it is now it when it wasn't then, is dishonesty sonship.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, on the contrary. I think that YOU are being dishonest. This is all rehash of exchanges we had long ago. And I referred to the Jude passage then. And this is all repetition.
I was most likely loosely paraphrasing something in a book by Robert Govette which is a scholar's study of the subject entitled "Eternal Suffering of the Wicked and Hades". As I recall, going back months, you did not like my paraphrase something about being hung up in chains for display or something similar. I clarified that TWO biblical evidences made my paraphrase not at all unbiblical.
What I am doing above is monotonous repetition of my writing months ago.
By bringing this up again, you either:
1.) Didn't read my previous explanation
2.) Read it but choose to ignore it
Which is it? You hated me generally paraphrasing something on Govette's book. I clarified the generality with two passages - one from Jude and one from Isaiah.
Together, the idea of the confined and punished enemies of God will be an everlasting warning.
I cannot recall if I used the Daniel passage at that time.
03 Jul 15
Originally posted by sonshipIt is still the central arrogance of mankind to think a deity would give a rats ass about humans. A deity capable of breathing in whole universes jealous of man. Right. A deity putting mankind on such a high plane as to make eternal torture a punishment. Right.
[b]How is not preaching something that is erroneous and so obviously morally repugnant "cheating people"?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is not repugnant to include in a complete presentation of the Gospel that God's righteous judgments are forever
[quote] Holman Christian Standard ...[text shortened]... ld have them know. Then we can be ready for questions in which we might be able to assist them.
It is the eternal arrogance of man making up religions that put mankind on such a high level. I don't see a deity coming down to save all those 1 year old children with cancer.
Your deity is a hands off deity, even if it exists, which is extremely doubtful.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Originally posted by divegeesterThe "lost" we were and are talking about are human beings, as to those on other worlds, well we still don't know what you are going on about but as you have never retracted the comment
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As I recall, I made some general comment about the enemies of God being an everlasting warning to the saved.
As I recall, you hated the paraphrase I used. No I don't think I retracted anything. I had no reason to. But I DID have reason to clarify and show the biblical support to God's enemies, angelic and human, to be an everlasting testimony of a failed rebellion.
To do this i recall referring to Jude and to Isaiah.
I cannot recall using Daniel. I may have.
This argument now is repetition of the same exchanges.
And you are saying basically that you refuse my clarification and demand some kind of retraction.
No. There may be chains mentioned in reference to angels but not to men. That I concede.
But the basic idea that both are a warning and a memorial of a FAILED rebellion against God requires no retraction from me.
You can disagree with this. But I have the Bible's support.
Had we taken the exchange over again I probably would have been more careful to separate the passage about ANGELS from the passage about HUMANS.
If I find again the portion of Govette's book that I was paraphrasing, I will quote it for you.
and continue to defend it we can only presume that you stand by it and believe that people on other planets are watching the suffering in eternal hell also.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ANYTHING I said about life on other planets was purely hypothetical. And I recall making that clarification also.
This argument you bring up again here is all repetition and rehash of things we wrote months ago. You just think it is so good for your argument that you are bringing it up over and over again.
And this seems to be your style. When you think you have some emotionally charged matter that will generate disgust, you repeat it ad nauseum.
Throwing some tenuous Daniel in there doesn't help either - it's as though you are pretending that it does. As I said your phrase is fabricated hokum.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Daniel passage is significant, despite your contempt for it.
The Daniel is about how the saints will shine like the stars for display, or like the heavenly firmament for display, and with glory for display. And the lost will be an everlasting shame or eternal contempt.
Your contempt for the passage doesn't make it hokum.
" And many who are sleeping in the dust of the ground will awake, some to life eternal and some to reproach, to eternal contempt.
And those who have insight will shine like the shining of the heavenly expanse, and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars, forever and ever. " (Daniel 12:2,3)