1. Standard membersonship
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    29 Jun '15 18:582 edits
    Because the thread Spectators in Hell got so long, over 1000 comments, I opened up something more manageable (for me) to address a few comments.

    Some of these I remember and will comment on, with limited discussion.

    So you choose to subscribe to the most grotesque interpretation of each symbol you can think of, would that be fair to say?


    No. I don't think that would be fair to say.

    I think it would be fair to say "the lake of fire" has to mean something very bad.

    I believe that if God reigns everywhere yet some creatures want nothing to do with God, He prepares a place for them. That is a place where there is the absence of His blessing.

    At the present time I think God will have each one who chooses to be there so occupied with their suffering that they will not further their sins upon each other.

    All there have no way to continue crimes upon others because all are restricted with their own suffering.

    They wanted a place where they are and God is not.
    And that is what they experience forever.


    Earlier you said something about how Christians must take Jesus' word for it - or words to that effect - but here you are quoting John The Baptist - not Jesus - who said something that "arguably" might mean something that fits your "most grotesque interpretation". It's interesting.

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    Not a major objection as I take the whole Bible really as the word of Jesus.

    But if you wanted to make an issue of John the Baptist using the phrase "unquenchable fire" an equivalent phrase would be used by Jesus.

    " Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.

    For everyone shall be salted with fire." (Mark 9:48,49)


    Destruction as in nonexistence I will speak to latter.

    Other comments that I find or recall at random I may speak to latter.
  2. Standard membersonship
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    29 Jun '15 19:191 edit
    FMF:

    Why isn't "fire" a symbol for destruction ~ that's what fire does - it utterly destroys things permanently.
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    The word apllumi and apolea - is translated destroy, destruction, perdition, perish, waste, loss in the Bible. These terms do not mean to bring to an end the substance of an article. They mean to render that article useless, or of no value.

    There is afterward bi value to the article according to its original intended purpose. Examples:

    Sheep lost (Matt. 10:6; Luke 15:4,5)
    Skin withered (Matt. 9:17)
    Ointment wasted ( Mark. 14:4)

    The meaning of the lake of fire is the lost of one's well being not the lost of being.

    The antichrist and his false prophet are cast into the lake of fire at the beginning of the thousand years of Christ's reign (Rev. 19:20) . They are still there when Satan is cast into it after the final rebellion (Rev. 20:10) . One thousand years of burning did not render them nonexistent. That "THEY" (plural) will be tormented day and night forever and ever indicates those two are still there.

    After a billion years, we can see what the effect would be different. The concluding words there "they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever," communicates that not only existence continues but consciousness also.

    And the proverbial expression "day and night" communicates uninterrupted punishment with no cessation.

    We will look at the phrase forever and ever latter.
  3. Standard membersonship
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    29 Jun '15 19:592 edits
    From verse twelve onwards in Revelation, we are confronted with one symbol or metaphor after another for the remainder of the book. It is therefore more likely that the 'fire of hell' is likewise a metaphor rather than a literal statement.
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    There are angels and demons and people who do not want to have anything to do with God. They long for an existence without God.

    God will prepare "a place" for these creations of His. He wants and has to communicate the awfulness of that place - that state. And He does in the Bible.

    It is God's responsibility to reveal that what these rebels want is not going to be to their liking. He will give them what they want but He lets us know beforehand that it is terrible.

    So we should ask God to soften our hearts to His plan of salvation in Jesus Christ. And it is very effective to simply begin to thank Him for sending the Son of God that we may be saved.

    What if the pain of being in the presence of the One who so loved them is worse than the pain of damnation ? When the lost realize the truth of what they have spurned for no reason, probably to be in the lake of fire will be escape from the light of seeing Who they have rejected.

    Some people will read this with a very macho attitude. They really prefer to have an existence without God. But recently I noticed Psalm 10:

    "For the wicked man boasts of the desire of his soul,
    And the rapacious man curses, even despises Jehovah.
    The wicked man, according to the haughtiness of his countenance, Says, He will not require it;

    All his thoughts are this: There is no God! " (Psalm 10:3-4)


    We should not be surprised that God communicates in no uncertain terms, how deep the symbolism not withstanding, that such an existence will be an undesirable suffering.

    Now some take death to mean nonexistence.
    But more accurately is that death in the Bible means separation.
  4. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    29 Jun '15 20:05
    "But many Israelites—those for whom the Kingdom was prepared—will be thrown into outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 8:12)

    I wonder if this 'outer darkness' is an alternative to the 'lake of fire', where hell is simply loneliness, isolation and separation from God.
  5. Standard membersonship
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    29 Jun '15 20:223 edits
    Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
    "But many Israelites—those for whom the Kingdom was prepared—will be thrown into outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 8:12)

    I wonder if this 'outer darkness' is an alternative to the 'lake of fire', where hell is simply loneliness, isolation and separation from God.
    The outer darkness here is temporary.
    Christians who are on the far end of those being disciplined during the thousand years, will be cast into the outer darkness.

    Concerning Christians coming before the judgment seat of Christ:

    " The work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one's work of what sort it is.

    If anyone's work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward.

    If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:13-15)


    Some are saved with an accompanying reward.
    Others are saved with but with the discipline of suffering loss.
    Yet they are saved "as through fire".

    This warning is so open ended that the duration and severity of the suffering of loss covers a large spectrum of possibilities. Included in these is being temporarily cast into the outer darkness during the time of the millennial kingdom.
  6. Standard membersonship
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    29 Jun '15 20:322 edits
    Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
    "But many Israelites—those for whom the Kingdom was prepared—will be thrown into outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 8:12)
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    This sounds like a paraphrase New Testament.
    The phrase there is "the sons of the kingdom".

    Someone thought they would put Israelites to "help" everyone understand. But it SAYS "the sons of the kingdom"

    Recovery Version :

    "But I say to you that many will come from the east and the west and will recline at table with Abraham an Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens,

    But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness. In that place there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth."


    These ones are not restricted to Israelites. But it most likely refers to some Israelites who will "suffer loss" during the millennial kingdom. They had been Israelites who believed in Christ but not lived according to the level of consecration demanded by the kingdom of the heavens.
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    30 Jun '15 09:301 edit
    Your enthusiasm for this horrible erroneous doctrine would be almost admirable if it wasn't so sad.
  8. Standard membersonship
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    30 Jun '15 10:171 edit
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Your enthusiasm for this horrible erroneous doctrine would be almost admirable if it wasn't so sad.
    You have not pointed out to me the erroneous part.
    You did mention little devils, butt-cheeks, pitchforks jabbing away.
    And you are adept to speak of horrible screams and paint pictures of Jesus enjoying the view.

    You have added these special touches to erect an emotionally charged strawman. But I don't count any of these as your teaching something "erroneous" in a serious way.

    The only point which I think to give attention to is the matter of what death is. For you have to ignore a lot of the Bible to teach that death is annihilation from existence.

    That is perhaps the only serious aspect of eternal punishment that I think deserves some discussion.

    Cont. latter
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    30 Jun '15 10:20
    I believe that if God reigns everywhere yet some creatures want nothing to do with God, He prepares a place for them. That is a place where there is the absence of His blessing.

    I already have absolutely nothing to do with this "god" you weirdos speak of.

    Is this "place" he is "preparing" as "bad" as where I am now? Or worse?
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    30 Jun '15 10:24
    Also, in what way is he "preparing" this place?

    Will he be doing the decorating himself?
  11. Standard membersonship
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    30 Jun '15 10:351 edit
    Originally posted by Great King Rat
    Also, in what way is he "preparing" this place?

    Will he be doing the decorating himself?
    This I take as a "tickle my curiosity" question.
    The word "prepare" I take from the Bible itself:

    "Then He will say also to those on the left, Go away from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire PREPARED for the devil and his angels." (Matt. 25:41)


    That is all I really know or need to know, such an eternal fire ("eternal punishment" (v.46)) is prepared by the One who has the power and authority to do so.
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    30 Jun '15 10:372 edits
    Originally posted by sonship
    You have not pointed out to me the erroneous part.
    You did mention little devils, butt-cheeks, pitchforks jabbing away.
    And you are adept to speak of horrible screams and paint pictures of Jesus enjoying the view.

    You have added these special touches to erect an emotionally charged strawman. But I don't count any of these as your teaching something "e ...[text shortened]... ly serious aspect of eternal punishment that I think deserves some discussion.

    Cont. latter
    It is interesting that you are more concerned with my comical comments about devils with pitchforks than you are about the flesh melting from billions of people as God watches them scream and writhe in agony. You have a very strange perspective, in my opinion
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    30 Jun '15 10:54
    Originally posted by sonship
    This I take as a "tickle my curiosity" question.
    The word [b]"prepare"
    I take from the Bible itself:

    "Then He will say also to those on the left, Go away from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire PREPARED for the devil and his angels." (Matt. 25:41)


    That is all I really know or need to know, such an eternal fi ...[text shortened]... e ("eternal punishment" (v.46)) is prepared by the One who has the power and authority to do so.[/b]
    How is he preparing this place? You seem to claim that this place is simply an absence of god, which would require no "preparing" whatsoever, except for god not being there.

    So what is he preparing? What is there except for his absence?

    And to go back to my first question: there is already an utter absence of your Ffantastical Friend in the Sy in my life. What will be different in that other place compared to now? Or will it be as "bad" as it is now?
  14. Standard membersonship
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    30 Jun '15 11:095 edits
    Originally posted by divegeester
    [b]It is interesting that you are more concerned with my comical comments about devils with pitchforks than you are about the flesh melting from billions of people as God watches them scream and writhe in agony. You have a very strange perpestive in my opinion
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    It is not really that interesting to see you use such immature tactics to erect a strawman argument.

    If a billion or more people choose to follow Satan to his destiny, then a billion or more do.

    As I said, the only serious objection that I think still deserves my examination is the nature of death. Some readers of this thread may also want to see how a Christian would deal with this issue.

    Please explain if you believe that God let the witch of En-dor actually bring up the immaterial part Samuel the prophet for King Saul. Explain if you do or do not believe First Samuel 28:7-19 .

    Do you think that the spirit of Samuel came up from a realm of the dead or not ? There he says he was at rest (15).

    " And Samuel said to Saul, Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up? And Saul said, I am greatly distressed; for the Philistines wage war against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, neither through the prophets nor by dreams,

    Therefore I have called you, that you may make known to me what I shall do." (1 Samuel 28:15)


    The Bible seems to say the spirit and soul (the immaterial part) of the dead man Samuel the prophet was accompanied by angels up from Hades (Sheol) as (v.13) mentions plural divine beings or gods, which leads me to believe he was brought up by angelic servants of God.

    It mentions that Samuel said something multiple times - v. 15, 16, 20 ("Samuel's words" ). It also mentions that both the witch and Saul knew that it was Samuel:

    "Now when the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice; and the woman spoke to Saul, saying, Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul." (v.12)


    "And he said to her, What is his appearance? And she said, An old man is coming up and he is wrapped in a cloak.

    Then Saul knew that it was SAMUEL ..." (v.14)

    Do you or do you not believe that the soul/spirit of the prophet Samuel was brought up from the realm of death where he was there undisturbed but not non-existent ?
  15. SubscriberFMF
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    30 Jun '15 11:271 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    If a billion or more people choose to follow Satan to his destiny, then a billion or more do.
    "Choose"? Surely you accept that people can be sincere and intellectually honest in their disagreement with you and in not believing the same things as you just so happen to believe? How is being tortured for eternity even remotely fair or just as a "punishment"? Where is the moral coherence to it? What notion of fairness and justice can humans draw, emulate and apply from such a far-fetched and depraved notion as the one you propagate?
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