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Originally posted by CalJustSonship,
Fair enough. I can accept that that is a matter of personal choice and strategy..
Having said that, and in the context of this thread, would you be prepared to examine the doctrine of eternal punishment from first principles, e.g. sin, justice, mercy and grace, without referring to Revelations or the rich man and poor Lazarus?
-Removed-There is an interesting issue for these Christians who believe in, preach and even relish the idea of eternal torment of non-believers.
Christ says:
But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again. (Luke 6:35-38 KJV)
Basically Christ says to be merciful, generous and forgiving. To me a Christian that believes in eternal torment for all non Christians and with such a narrow interpretation of the teachings of Christ is quite possibly lacking in these qualities... and are unmerciful, lacking in generosity and unforgiving. Christ says that He will treat them with the same measure.
The most lenient, generous and liberal interpretation of the Bible [something which I have often said] is the one which includes all people .. all good and God-fearing people whose conscience guides them to live righteously before God, whoever they conceive Him to be. God is not a respecter or persons, neither is God interested in semantics or cheap talk. God is interested in those who follow after righteousness. Evil doers will be destroyed or not even raised from the dead.
-Removed-Most Christians [again like I already stated] dont really read the Bible for themselves, neither do they formulate their doctrine from the Bible. They instead rely on the preacher in the churches.
Churches preach two extreme doctrines which serve to keep the congregation loyal and their bank accounts fat:
- the complete and immediate salvation of the Christian notwithstanding any future sins
- the horrendous fate of the lost [the nonChristian] in eternal torment in hellfire.
Both doctrines serve to compliment each other..
Two other scriptures are also intersting in this context.
Both Christ and Stephen pray to God on their deathbed about their tormentors: Father forgive them, for they know not what they are doing.
If they (Jesus and Stephen) ask God to forgive persons who act sinfully, but in ignorance of the Truth, shouldn't we? And wouldn't God?
Originally posted by Rajk999I don't know about 'interesting'. Scam would be a better word. People lost their BS meter thousands of years ago.
Of course. That goes without saying. However the doctrines fit very nicely with each other:
- Punishment without wrongdoing.
- Reward without obedience.
Interesting Christianity.
Originally posted by sonhouseI dont think so. Many contemporary Christians lost their BS meter in the last few hundred years. In all cultures and religions people know right from wrong, good from evil, righteous from unrighteous and godly from ungodly. These are common to all people.
I don't know about 'interesting'. Scam would be a better word. People lost their BS meter thousands of years ago.
The righteous judgment of God will separate the good from the evil.
Originally posted by CalJustCan you do it without insults?
Sonship,
Having said that, and in the context of this thread, would you be prepared to examine the doctrine of eternal punishment from first principles, e.g. sin, justice, mercy and grace, without referring to Revelations or the rich man and poor Lazarus?
Originally posted by KellyJayDo you have the ability to focus on the central idea of a post rather than what you call insult? If you do see what you interpret to be an insult does it cloud your mind to the real meaning of the post?
Can you do it without insults?
A strong minded person will answer 'Yes' and 'No'. They can ignore the insult and move on with the conversation. If you have that problem then God help you if you find yourself in a difficult situation and someone shouts 'KellyJay .. you a$$hole .. get out of there before you get killed you moron.."
Learn to focus.