Nice Stories about Religions

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
I'm always bashing religion - especially Christianity and to a lesser extent Islam. I know about Benny Hinn the Healer, the Inquisition, Muslim terrorists, bla bla bla.

Tell me some nice stuff. Give me the other side.

The life of St. Francis of Assisi is a 'nice story'.

Kepler's Neoplatonism inspired his discoveries.

Michael Faraday's scientific career was profoundly influenced by his Sandemanian Christianity.

Ashoka unified India under Buddhism, which must have been nice.

I suppose it depends what you consider nice.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
Robbed of the negative connotations of the word 'selfish', your argument loses much of its sting.

How many of us are [b]not 'influenced to have other's happiness affect our own'? We're a social species. We are driven to act for the good of the group. I don't see what's so remarkable about that claim.

Edit: Just thought of another question. Most ...[text shortened]... really say that someone who acts on this urge is primarily acting out of self-interest?[/b]

SwissGambit, I never meant for my argument to have any "sting". I was merely stating my point of view, as I think most people in this forum do. I'd just like to offer people a different perspective of how to view the world. People usually get upset or angry when they don't understand something, and rightfully so, it can be seen as threatening. Knowing that all actions occur because of someone's effort to make themselves happy, just as you and everyone else in the world has the RIGHT to do, has helped me in my own quest for meaning and understanding of the way things are.

To answer your question, yes, I believe we still act out of self-interest (which I like better than selfish, thank you). Here is the reasoning: as you said we cringe or feel uncomfortable to see someone in pain. We take action to alleviate that discomfort and that comes in the form of adrenaline because our brain realizes what we need to do in order to prevent ourselves from feeling that discomfort. If a person does not feel uncomfortable about seeing someone in pain, will that person make an effort to stop it? No (unless there is some other motive behind it). So, the point is, in the exact same situation, a person seeing another person suffering, the person will act to eliminate their own discomfort. If no discomfort exists, then the person will not act.

Originally posted by KellyJay
You were at one time in your life what you call 'religious' were you
not, and nothing of that remains that you remember it?
Kelly

No, I was born into an atheistic household. I assume you're willing to answer personal questions about your past since you're so willing to ask them, right?

Originally posted by brobluto
SwissGambit, I never meant for my argument to have any "sting". I was merely stating my point of view, as I think most people in this forum do. I'd just like to offer people a different perspective of how to view the world. People usually get upset or angry when they don't understand something, and rightfully so, it can be seen as threatening. Knowing that t to eliminate their own discomfort. If no discomfort exists, then the person will not act.

If all actions occur because of the personal desire to increase happiness, then why do people commit suicide?

Or sacrifice their life for another?

Using "happiness" as a meter for all actions sounds absurd in some cases, like a drug addict who continues using to alleviate withdrawal. Can we really claim such a person is acting to increase happiness when he is obviously miserable, and he knows it?

Originally posted by brobluto
Absolutely right!

Everything humans do have a self-serving motive. Whether or not it's a conscious decision is beside the point.

You name the deed, and I'll prove it's selfish.

Jesus dying for everyone's sins was not selfish it was selfless.

Religion and tradition in itself are not good necessarily. It's the relationship that matters.

Originally posted by chappy1
Jesus dying for everyone's sins was not selfish it was selfless.

Jesus wanted to get home and that was the only way he could.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
If [b]all actions occur because of the personal desire to increase happiness, then why do people commit suicide?

Or sacrifice their life for another?

Using "happiness" as a meter for all actions sounds absurd in some cases, like a drug addict who continues using to alleviate withdrawal. Can we really claim such a person is acting to increase happiness when he is obviously miserable, and he knows it?[/b]

Suicide: total unhappiness attempting to remove it with a last ditch effort. Not feeling anything is better than unhappiness, I guess.

Sacrifice: because they think it's right (goes back to a couple of other threads I posted).

Drug addict: short term vs long term happiness. In this case, they chose the short term. They weighed the options and decided that a quick fix is better than kicking it entirely.

Originally posted by brobluto
Sacrifice: because they think it's right (goes back to a couple of other threads I posted).

But that's a different motivation than self-interest. Now it sounds like you are conceding that things can be done because they are right, just as others in the thread have said.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
But that's a different motivation than self-interest. Now it sounds like you are conceding that things can be done because they are right, just as others in the thread have said.

No. I said, because they THINK it is right. We determine something is right by the influences that we have had in our life. Doing the "right" thing gives us pleasure, sometimes, just knowing that we are doing the "right" thing is pleasure enough. Thinking it is the right thing to do, and not doing it, and suffering the consequence of living with that decision after would cause unhappiness/discomfort. They avoid that by sacrificing themselves.

Originally posted by brobluto
No. I said, because they THINK it is right. We determine something is right by the influences that we have had in our life. Doing the "right" thing gives us pleasure, sometimes, just knowing that we are doing the "right" thing is pleasure enough. Thinking it is the right thing to do, and not doing it, and suffering the consequence of living with that decision after would cause unhappiness/discomfort. They avoid that by sacrificing themselves.

Much like "selfish", you have taken "self-interest" and exaggerated/distorted its meaning until it engulfs what would otherwise be counterexamples to your argument.

Sacrificing your life for another is a bizarre form of self-interest indeed. Yet another word added to the Bizarro collection. [I've racked up quite a few of them from discussions with theists; good to see [I think!] some non-theists adding to the list, as well...]

Originally posted by SwissGambit
Much like "selfish", you have taken "self-interest" and exaggerated/distorted its meaning until it engulfs what would otherwise be counterexamples to your argument.

Sacrificing your life for another is a bizarre form of self-interest indeed. Yet another word added to the Bizarro collection. [I've racked up quite a few of them from discussions with theists; good to see [I think!] some non-theists adding to the list, as well...]

Quick, quick! God appears and gives you two choices. Hell or unconcious death.

See? Choosing death can be in one's self-interest.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
Much like "selfish", you have taken "self-interest" and exaggerated/distorted its meaning until it engulfs what would otherwise be counterexamples to your argument.

Sacrificing your life for another is a bizarre form of self-interest indeed. Yet another word added to the Bizarro collection. [I've racked up quite a few of them from discussions with theists; good to see [I think!] some non-theists adding to the list, as well...]

I never said it was an easy concept to grasp. and you're right, I'm probably using the wrong terminology, but I haven't found a better term yet.

Who said I am a non-theist? I don't know what I am, I have my own thoughts on things and they are subject to change (although I'm finding it harder and harder to find reasons to change what I think). What -ist am I?

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
Quick, quick! God appears and gives you two choices. Hell or unconcious death.

See? Choosing death can be in one's self-interest.

exactly. You believe that it brings the least unhappiness to yourself.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
Quick, quick! God appears and gives you two choices. Hell or unconcious death.

See? Choosing death can be in one's self-interest.

He's making a much stronger claim than that. He claims that all instances of choosing death are motivated [at least in part] by self-interest.