Spirituality
12 Apr 08
18 Apr 08
1 edit
Originally posted by broblutoBecause I was brought up to do what is right - even when it leads to unhappiness.
Just answer me this: Why would you do something other than what makes you happiest?
If you got a chance to steal from someone without them knowing and you were sure you wouldn't get caught, would you do it? I wouldn't.
18 Apr 08
Originally posted by twhiteheadOkay.
Because I was brought up to do what is right - even when it leads to unhappiness.
If you got a chance to steal from someone without them knowing and you were sure you wouldn't get caught, would you do it? I wouldn't.
I don't believe you were brought up to do what is right. My argument is that even the most righteous people do what others think is wrong. Look at the torture of the Spanish Inquisition.
Like me, You were brought up to believe in doing something that others believed is right. Most of those things going against what you truly want to do. But, deep down, you justify it internally that it was what you were SUPPOSED to do and that makes you happy, to think that some saw you do a good deed.
Please don't ask questions about how someone would react in a situation, even yourself. Everything is circumstantial and you can't possibly list all of the circumstances, unless you were railroading the answer to what you want it to be. i.e. Hypothetically, I'd steal money, and whatever else I had to do in a heartbeat if a child of mine needed a surgery to save their life and it was not covered by insurance. But, to be honest, I don't know REALLY know if I would, because I haven't been in that situation.
18 Apr 08
Originally posted by broblutoI agree.
Like me, You were brought up to believe in doing something that others believed is right.
Most of those things going against what you truly want to do. But, deep down, you justify it internally that it was what you were SUPPOSED to do and that makes you happy, to think that some saw you do a good deed.
Why are you so convinced that it makes me happy? If all my decisions are making me happy then why am I so depressed? So far you have provided no evidence whatsoever to support your claim, you simply keep repeating it in the hope that I will believe you.
Please don't ask questions about how someone would react in a situation, even yourself. Everything is circumstantial and you can't possibly list all of the circumstances, unless you were railroading the answer to what you want it to be. i.e. Hypothetically, I'd steal money, and whatever else I had to do in a heartbeat if a child of mine needed a surgery to save their life and it was not covered by insurance. But, to be honest, I don't know REALLY know if I would, because I haven't been in that situation.
Actually you claim that you would do whatever makes you happy - so how can you not know? Do you not know what makes you happy until you are put in the situation?
18 Apr 08
Originally posted by twhiteheadSorry, maybe I should rephrase. We do things in an EFFORT to make ourselves happy. I'm not ecstatic, but I'm happy. If you're depressed, you may want to seek professional help. I have a couple people in my life that do seem to thrive on misery. But, maybe misery is what makes them happy. I know that sounds contradictory, but just think about it. They may get enjoyment from pity, self-pity or others pity. It gets them through the day. And that may be because they don't know anything else. They've never truly been happy, or believe that it's possible. I'm not saying that this is you, but just thought it might give you some perspective. No one's going to jump out and say, "let me make you happy." you have to do it for yourself.
I agree.
[b]Most of those things going against what you truly want to do. But, deep down, you justify it internally that it was what you were SUPPOSED to do and that makes you happy, to think that some saw you do a good deed.
Why are you so convinced that it makes me happy? If all my decisions are making me happy then why am I so depressed? So far ...[text shortened]... can you not know? Do you not know what makes you happy until you are put in the situation?[/b]
Like I said before, I'm not going to be the one to prove it to you. We all have different things that make us happy. It's up to you to find out what those things are work towards them.
And you're right, I don't know what will make me the happiest, until I am in the REAL situation and able to weigh all of the possible options.
19 Apr 08
Originally posted by broblutoHow is it that you have decided you know more about my motives and thought processes than I do, even though we've never met? I don't think we've even ever interacted outside of this particular thread. That makes me wonder why you're acting as though your theories are facts.
You can certainly do that. But, either consciously or sub-consciously, chemically in your brain you are doing it because it makes you happy to think that you did save someone. It releases endorphines and gives you that natural high.
21 Apr 08
Originally posted by broblutoIt appears you are confusing happiness with desire. For the most part we do what we desire to do. That does not necessarily make us happy nor do we necessarily expect that it will make us happy.
But, maybe misery is what makes them happy. I know that sounds contradictory, but just think about it. They may get enjoyment from pity, self-pity or others pity. It gets them through the day.
We do things for many reasons. Your assertion that we do them in order to make ourselves happy is not only totally unfounded (you have so far produced no evidence for it) but is not borne out by the evidence - unhappiness routinely results from people decisions often with full prior knowledge.
21 Apr 08
Originally posted by broblutoperhaps you cannot say how you would re-act to a given situation--but some of us CAN say without equivocation. Of course people do not "do what makes them happiest" every day--I fo one, for fear of going to jail (or worse). It would make me happiest to never pay another tax as long as I live. It would cause me euphoria to have a Constitutioonal Convention called and/or completely overhaul our government--just start all over with a bloodless coup. Ecstasy would gush from my pores if I could watch the people who have caused me great pain die slowly of an ebola/Alzheimer's crossbred virus.
Okay.
I don't believe you were brought up to do what is right. My argument is that even the most righteous people do what others think is wrong. Look at the torture of the Spanish Inquisition.
Like me, You were brought up to believe in doing something that others believed is right. Most of those things going against what you truly want to do. But, d ...[text shortened]... be honest, I don't know REALLY know if I would, because I haven't been in that situation.
You see, we do NOT do what would make us happiest.
21 Apr 08
Originally posted by twhiteheadNot at all, there is so much there I fail to see the need to ask the
Interesting how all the theists are finding it impossible to come up with anything good from religion.
question. My life from what it was to is, if the first and closes thing
I could talk about.
Kelly
21 Apr 08
Originally posted by AThousandYoungYou were at one time in your life what you call 'religious' were you
I guess you're unable to provide such stories. That's odd since you're one of the most devoted Christians around. It says something that you take a thread like this and post with hostility.
not, and nothing of that remains that you remember it?
Kelly
21 Apr 08
Originally posted by twhiteheadI don't necessarily disagree with you. But why would you desire to do something other than what makes you happy? I've asked this question before, and the answer is, because you think it's right. And we;ve already established that you determine what is right by what other people told you and instilled in you as right. People you admire/respect. People you want to please. And it may not even be people, it may be God. So, ultimately, you are doing something to please people or God, which is giving you happiness. Maybe it's not happiness in the traditionl sense, but it is contentment.
It appears you are confusing happiness with desire. For the most part we do what we desire to do. That does not necessarily make us happy nor do we necessarily expect that it will make us happy.
We do things for many reasons. Your assertion that we do them in order to make ourselves happy is not only totally unfounded (you have so far produced no evide ...[text shortened]... evidence - unhappiness routinely results from people decisions often with full prior knowledge.
Again, this is MY argument, and I will never be able to produce hard evidence for this argument for other people, just like you will not be able to produce believable evidence to the contrary. It's a matter of belief and type of "faith", if you will, that no matter what happens, everyone does something for a reason, those reasons are substantially different, but nonetheless the same in ultimate motive.
BTW, we are not imnipotent, so we can never have FULL prior knowledge, which is sometimes what leads to unhappiness. And as I said before, if you are knowingly choosing decisions that WILL make you unhappy, then you need to seek professional help and stop thriving on misery and pity. If you are thriving on misery and pity, then you are making yourself happy by choosing the unhappy choices. I know, it sounds contradictory, but you know what I mean.
21 Apr 08
Originally posted by PinkFloydIt makes you happy by NOT doing those things because you anticipate the consequences either human(jail) or supernatural (god). Avoiding unhappiness is the same as choosing happiness, is it not? If not, what is the absence of happiness and unhappiness called?
perhaps you cannot say how you would re-act to a given situation--but some of us CAN say without equivocation. Of course people do not "do what makes them happiest" every day--I fo one, for fear of going to jail (or worse). It would make me happiest to never pay another tax as long as I live. It would cause me euphoria to have a Constitutioonal Conventi ...[text shortened]... of an ebola/Alzheimer's crossbred virus.
You see, we do NOT do what would make us happiest.
21 Apr 08
Brobluto, how do you define 'selfish'?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/selfish
1: concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others
2: arising from concern with one's own welfare or advantage in disregard of others
3: being an actively replicating repetitive sequence of nucleic acid that serves no known function ; also : being genetic material solely concerned with its own replication
(my emphasis)
21 Apr 08
Originally posted by SwissGambitIf I had to choose between those, I'd say either 1 and/or 2. I realize that the definition mentions the disregard for others as a qualifying phrase to determine whether or not something is selfish.
Brobluto, how do you define 'selfish'?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/selfish
1: concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others
2: arising from concern with one's own welfare or advantage in disregard of others
3: bein ...[text shortened]... on ; also : being genetic material solely concerned with its own replication
(my emphasis)
Since you are so good at using the dictionary, can you find me the term that means, basically the same thing, but without ENTIRELY negating the regard for others? What I mean is that we MAY regard others' when making a decision, but it is often to a much lesser extent than our own; unless we have been influenced to have other's happiness effect our own. i.e. "I'm happy if you're happy." or, "happy wife, happy life", or "I'd do anything for my kids." or "That's God's will" etc.
21 Apr 08
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Originally posted by broblutoRobbed of the negative connotations of the word 'selfish', your argument loses much of its sting.
If I had to choose between those, I'd say either 1 and/or 2. I realize that the definition mentions the disregard for others as a qualifying phrase to determine whether or not something is selfish.
Since you are so good at using the dictionary, can you find me the term that means, basically the same thing, but without ENTIRELY negating the regard for o wife, happy life", or "I'd do anything for my kids." or "That's God's will" etc.
How many of us are not 'influenced to have other's happiness affect our own'? We're a social species. We are driven to act for the good of the group. I don't see what's so remarkable about that claim.
Edit: Just thought of another question. Most of us cringe or feel uncomfortable if we see another human suffer severe pain. This can produce a power, almost reflex-action type urge to do something to stop the pain. Can we really say that someone who acts on this urge is primarily acting out of self-interest?
22 Apr 08
Originally posted by KellyJayBut why are you avoiding talking about it? All AThousandYoung wanted was a few feel good stories (hopefully factual) to make him a bit less caustic about religion. Yet you don't seem to want to help him out.
Not at all, there is so much there I fail to see the need to ask the
question. My life from what it was to is, if the first and closes thing
I could talk about.
Kelly