No pre-tribulaion rapture

Originally posted by RJHinds

I was not specifically saying that Evan Roberts was full of shyte. That is what an atheist like sonhouse might say. I said they, as a group, might be mistaken. This is my quote:

It is very possible that these commentators are mistaken or, as sonhouse says it, "full of shyte", too.

" ... mistaken or, as sonhouse says it, full ....etc. "

So Evan Roberts, being one member of the group of commentators, would come under the condemnation of the whole group. Same with every other member of the group expressing the consensus thought of the group.

Is there biblical ground for any of these statements?

"Those who are translated will have to be accounted worthy of it: it is not a gift, but a prize to be won, in the strength of the Lord, by fruits of faith, conduct and works after conversion." - G.H.Pember

Luke 21:36

"Only those who are devoutly looking and waiting for the Savior's return shall be taken first." - Seiss

Revelation 14:1-5

"Shall we not face the solemn probability? - one Christian may be taken, and the other left! " - Miss G.A. Morgan

Matthew 24:40-41

"The teaching of first-fruits translation is said to be a legal doctrine, doing despite to grace. How can this be, when apart from grace it is impossible to live such a life as alone can entitle to the privilege set forth? Nothing can more show one his dependence on grace, or more fire the heart with longings after grace, or more animate to believing prayer for grace, than a conviction that apart from its constant and abundant reception, we must fail to be ready to see our Lord with joy." - Fuller Gooch

John 15:5; 1 John 2:28,29

"The Lord may come at any time and suddenly take away His waiting, watchful people, and in view of the appalling times of trouble that will follow the removal of those ' accounted worthy,' every elect child of grace should be found watching an praying always, that he may escape the unparalleled tribulations that await fulfillment " - W. H. Rawlings

Luke 21:36

"The burden on my spirit day and night is the imminent appearance of our Lord. I pray God to make you ready, and to keep you ready. May your portion be amongst the blessed number that shall be caught up to heaven" - Evan Roberts

Luke 21:36; Rev. 12:5,10; Rev. 14:1-5

"Rather let us ever be on the watch tower of prayer, pleading earnestly that we may be accounted worthy to escape the awful days of vengeance for thus only, abiding in Him, and His Word abiding in us, can we have confidence, or hope to escape the fate of those who shall be shamed from Him in His Presence" - Dr. G. F. Poynder

Luke 21:36

"A few, comparatively a mere handful of the Church, will be accounted worthy to escape the terrible testing period which is coming upon all flesh" - H.W. Fry

Revelation 14:1-5

"The translation of these shall be an awakening to the rest " - G. A. Harris

This comment I would regard as mostly common sense.

"I must stand by the interpretation which gives to Jesus' words [Matt. 24:42] their highest force, which really ministers the most potent motive to vigilance: the believer's reward is made to turn on his actual position at the Lord's descent. The warning would be quite incongruous on any other view" - Robert Govette

Matt. 24:45-51

"If I rightly understand my Bible, my God, and His Word, there will be no translation for such as have not lived here below as those who belong to Heaven" - Otto Stockmayer

I would submit that the firstfruits of Rev. 14:1-5 are simply physically transported to where their hearts and minds were while on earth (See Hebrews 12:22,24)

"To those of God's saints in this Age who are counted worthy to complete escape is to be granted: escape from the awful period of earth-judgments is possible, but it is conditional - Samuel H. Wilkinson

Luke 21:36; Rev. 3:10

"Like Enoch, those Christians with the traits of Philadelphia grace and fidelity are taken before the judgment of the tribulation. Such as share the Laodicean spirit will be left behind, to awake, repent, and witness for their Lord through that awful time of woe, and whether by martyrdom or translation at the Harvest, be among the saved at last " - G. D. Hooper

Rev. 3:10, 14-22

"Perilous times are upon us: may it be mine to watch and pray always that I may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that are coming to pass, and to stand before the Son of man! " - John Wilkinson

Luke 21:36

Originally posted by sonship
Is there biblical ground for any of these statements?

"Those who are translated will have to be accounted worthy of it: it is not a gift, but a prize to be won, in the strength of the Lord, by fruits of faith, conduct and works after conversion." - G.H.Pember

[b]Luke 21:36

"Only those who are devoutly looking and waitin ...[text shortened]... ing to pass, and to stand before the Son of man! " - John Wilkinson

Luke 21:36[/b]

To say that they might be mistaken is not meant as a condemnation.

Now we are going to run back over the way the Lord behaved from His resurrection TO His ascension and ascertain what it means for Him to come back the way He left.

Why does the Lord teach the disciples to watch and be ready in His coming ? It is similar to His training of the disciples when He resurrected.

Jesus appeared and vanished from their sight on a few occasions. It does not say that He went away. It says that He vanished from their sight. He was training them that even though they could not see Him He was still with them.

Christ carried out this kind of training of the first disciples over a period of 40 days -

" ... He presented Himself alive after His suffering by many irrefutable proofs, appearing to them through a period of forty days and speaking the things concerning the kingdom of God." (Acts 1:3)

Both the Gospel of John and the Gospel of Luke speak of these appearances and vanishings. The reason why the first disciples were so convinced of Christ's presence was that He trained them to absolutely understand that they had to learn to live by His invisible presence.

In His second coming the same truth is to be grasped. He may APPEAR to us at any moment. This does not mean we are not WITH Him. We must live as we are WITH Him for actually we ARE.

This is the meaning of WATCH and be READY. Think of it Christians. If you realized that Jesus was sitting in the same room with you visibly would not your behavior be often different?

In preparation for His return physically, we too must appreciate by WATCHING and VIGILANCE that though we cannot SEE Jesus He is with us. He is with us even unto the consummation of the age (Matt. 28:20).

The reason why one man is taken and the other is left and one woman is taken and the other left is because of the practice of His invisible presence is present as a habit in one but not in the other.

A RECOVERY of the grasping of this truth is needed by the church in the last days. Though we cannot SEE Jesus, He is nonetheless HERE. He will appear to take some who are watching and ready for this appearance at literally any moment.

Secondly - It is not necessary that He PHYSICALLY be on the the earth in the first pre-great tribulation rapture. He still APPEARS the micro second that the taken saints are removed to the third heavens.

"But be watchful at every time, beseeching that you would prevail to escape all these things which are about to happen and stand before the Son of Man." (Luke 21:36)

"And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads ... And I heard a voice out of heaven ... harp singers playing on their harps ... Thee were purchased from among men as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb." (See Rev. 14:1-5)

The suddenly go PHYSICALLY to where they have been in spirit in their daily lives on the earth.

Soon I will discuss the Lord's coming in respect to the cloud. This is important and missed by most Christians reading the Bible today.

Originally posted by sonship
Now we are going to run back over the way the Lord behaved from His resurrection TO His ascension and ascertain what it means for Him to come back the way He left.

Why does the Lord teach the disciples to watch and be ready in His coming ? It is similar to His training of the disciples when He resurrected.

Jesus appeared and vanished from their sig ...[text shortened]... n respect to the cloud. This is important and missed by most Christians reading the Bible today.

Don't overlook the fact that it says that those believers that remain alive (after the great tribulation) will be caught up (raptured) to meet the Lord in the air.

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(1 Thessalonians 4:17 King James Version KJV)

This verse is were we get the rapture, which is Latin for (caught up) as I understand it.

To where does it say the vast collection of believers is raptured in First Thessalonians ? It is to the clouds in the air.

"Then we who are living, who are left remaining, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air ..." ( 1 Thess. 17a)

Does this agree with the scene of the rapture of a Harvest in Revelation 14:14-16 ? It would seem so -

"And another angel came out of thetemple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, Send forth Your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come because the harvest of the earth is ripe. And He who sat on the cloud thrust His sickle upon the earth, and the earth was reaped." (Rev. 14:15,16)

Clearly both First Thessalonians 1:17 and Revelation 14:14-16 are at the end, the closing of the time of great tribulation.

But to where is the man-child raptured in Revelation 12 prior to the thousand two hundred and sixty days? It is to the throne of God beyond the atmosphere of the earth in the third heavens.

"And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. (12:5) ... And I heard a loud voice in heaven saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb ... etc. " (12:10,11a)

The TIME is different.
The PLACE to which they go is different.

Where are seen the Firstfruits standing before Christ at the beginning of Revelation 14 prior to the Harvest at the END of Revelation 14?

They are standing on Mount Zion before the Lamb Christ and the four living creatures and the angelic elders which were seen in heaven (Rev. 4,5)

"And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name .... etc. .... And I heard a voice out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; ... etc." (Rev. 14:1,2a)

Again the TIME is different.
Again the PLACE is different.

In the typology the firstfruits and the harvest arrived at different places in the OT. The firstfruit is set aside from the harvest.

Lev. 23:10,11 - "Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them, When you come into the land which I am giving you, and reap its harvest, then you shall bring the sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest to the priest. And he shall wave the sheaf before Jehovah for your acceptance; on the day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it."

Exodus 23:19a - " The first of the firstfruits of your ground you shall bring into the house of Jehovah your God."

The firstfruits are ripe first and taken to the temple of God before the majority of the harvest.

So the typology of different timing and different destination is confirmed in the Old Testament. God's reaping of believers from the field of the earth is similar.

Originally posted by sonship
To where does it say the vast collection of believers is raptured in First Thessalonians ? It is to the clouds in the air.

[b]"Then we who are living, who are left remaining, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air ..." ( 1 Thess. 17a)

Does this agree with the scene of the rapture of a Harvest in ...[text shortened]... firmed in the Old Testament. God's reaping of believers from the field of the earth is similar.

Only those that remain alive after the tribulation are raptured to meet Jesus in the air at his second coming. The rapture is not the Harvest.

The man-child is Jesus and the woman is Israel. Jesus was taken up to God after His resurrection.

She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

(Revelation 12:5 NKJV)

Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.

(Revelation 19:15-16 NKJV)

Originally posted by RJHinds
Only those that remain alive after the tribulation are raptured to meet Jesus in the air at his second coming. The rapture is not the Harvest.

The man-child is Jesus and the woman is Israel. Jesus was taken up to God after His resurrection.

[b]She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and ...[text shortened]... thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS. [/quote]
(Revelation 19:15-16 NKJV)

Oh God help us. You quote the Bible to each other yet seem to miss the message of peace and love that the Gospels give, that even an unbeliever like me managed to spot. Are you in the People's front of Judea or the Judean People's Front?

Originally posted by DeepThought
Oh God help us. You quote the Bible to each other yet seem to miss the message of peace and love that the Gospels give, that even an unbeliever like me managed to spot. Are you in the People's front of Judea or the Judean People's Front?

This is simply a debate over the order of a prophesied event. We have no disagreement with the message of peace and love. But I have gotten the idea that sonship was talking past me without reading my post to really understand it. At one point I thought he might be doing a FMF on me by misrepresenting what I had said. So I believe I let him know that diappointment with his post. I hope that does not continue.