Originally posted by RJHinds
http://christianovercomers.com/blog/2011/07/06/the-rapture-deception/

In order to understand Matthew 24 and 25, we must first understand the rapture. After we have understood the rapture, we still need a considerable foundation before we can understand Matthew 24 and 25. These two chapters are prophecies concerning (1) the Jews, (2) the church, and (3) the Gentiles. Besides Revelation, these two chapters are the most important prophecies in this age. Revelation covers the details, whereas Matthew covers the principle. These two chapters are most difficult to understand. Until a hundred years ago, no one paid much attention to them. It was not until 1828 that people began to study them in detail. Because of differences in background, the expositions were different. Generally speaking, there are three schools: (1) Newton maintains that both these chapters refer to the church. (2) Darby and Scofield maintain that both these chapters refer to the Jews. (3) Our attitude is that some parts refer to the Jews and some parts to the church. The reasons put forth by the three schools respectively are: (1) the disciples represent the church, (2) the disciples represent the Jews, and (3) the disciples are Jews (representing the remnant of the Jews) and also at the same time are pillars of the church.

It is most important to see the difference in the division of these two chapters; otherwise, we will be misled by the first two schools. We must read carefully, and we must read it ourselves. This is like bringing our own scales to buy our groceries; it is the only way to assure that we will not be cheated.

Let us look at the background of chapters twenty-two and twenty-three first. In Matthew 21:43 the Lord prophesied about the taking of the kingdom of God from the Jews, and in 22:21 the Lord commanded the Jews to submit to the Gentiles. In chapter twenty-three the Lord rebuked the Pharisees. In 23:38 the word "house" has the same root word as the word "buildings" in 24:1. It should have been the Father's house, but at that time it had become "your house." Here the Lord was clearly rejecting the people of Israel. This is the background.

Before the Lord there are two groups of people: (1) the rejected Jews, and (2) a nation producing its fruit (21:43). The disciples represented both the remnant of the Jews and the called ones, that is, both the Jews and the church. Thus, we should first find out which section refers to the Jews and which section to the church. Matthew 24:1-31 refers to the Jews; whereas 24:32—25:46 refers to the church. The reason for this division is based on the internal evidence and the external evidence. The internal evidence is the text itself; the external evidence is the proof from the Epistles. -

Originally posted by sonship
I can't go to all your links.

But you go along with whatever you think you'd rather understand.
You don't want to believe that Christ would take up some believers pre-tribulation? Then don't believe it.

Concerning the day of the Lord, I am not confused about that matter.

Concerning some background history on the way Matthew 24 was interpreted ...[text shortened]... Matthew, the chapter called [b]Rapture.

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?cid=19D3[/b]

God's people on the earth are likened to a crop -

"I planted, Apollos watered, but God caused the growth ... you are God's cultivated land, God's building." (See 1 Cor. 3:6,9)

Notice, to grow is the build - "God's cultivated land, God's building".

The building material of the church is the Christ that grows within man.
Nothing of the old man, the fallen Adam can go to building the church.

So we must firmly realize that we received Christ that Christ would grow in us, if we are Christians.

Now, rapture is the climax of growth process. It doesn't matter that the Lord has not returned in the last two millennium. The rapture is STILL a consummation of the growth of the divine life in God's saved ones.

"But when the fruit is RIPE, immediately he sends forth the sickle, because the harvest has come." (Mark 4:29)

Why does the farmer send the sickle? It is because of RIPENESS of that which he planted and is growing. Again, the same concept in Revelation 14 -

"And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, Send forth Your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come because the harvest of the earth is ripe. And He who sat on the cloud thrust His sickle upon the earth, and the earth was reaped."

Now whether brothers and sisters like it or do not like it, the word of God shows that some of the crop will RIPEN early. This are in the same chapter 14 of Revelation as FIRSTFRUITS.

What is the nature of the song that they sing? It says they sing a song that no one else was able to learn. A song comes from experience. And to have a song which only they know is to have an experience that only they have had.

And what is this experience? It is to live on the earth and never taste physical death but rather to walk right up into the presence of Jesus Christ in the heavens as Enoch had done.

"And they sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been purchased from the earth." (Rev. 14:3)

The Recovery Version footnote on this verses says -

No one can learn the new song sung by these first overcomers, a song that must be in accord with their experiences of the Lamb, because no one else has their specific and particular experiences of Christ.

"And I saw another sign in heaven, great and wonderful, seven angels having seven plagues, the last plagues; for in them the fury of God was finished.

And I saw as it were a glassy sea mingled with fire and those who come away victorious from the beast and from his image and from the number of his name standing on the glassy sea, having harps of God.

And they sing the song of Moses, the slave of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and wonderful are Your works, Lord God the Almighty! Righteous and true are Your ways, O King of the nations!

Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Our name ? For You alone are holy; for all the nations will come and worship before You, for Your righteous judgments have been manifested." (Rev. 15:1-4)

Originally posted by sonship
Now whether brothers and sisters like it or do not like it, the word of God shows that some of the crop will RIPEN early. This are in the same chapter 14 of Revelation as [b]FIRSTFRUITS.

What is the nature of the song that they sing? It says they sing a song that no one else was able to learn. A song comes from experience. And to have a song which o ...[text shortened]... apture. Rather they praise God that His ways are righteous and true and His works are wonderful.[/b]

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Originally posted by RJHinds

But do not forget that the rapture has always been taught as the catching up of the believers that remain alive at the coming of the Lord, which is after the tribulation.

Originally posted by sonship

We have to see here that God is rather "sneaky" with man's reliance on traditional ideas when they stand in the way of moral harmony with His will... God has a "sneaky" way of fulfilling His promises. And we can be caught off guard if we are not familiar with His ways, especially in regards to moral harmony with Him.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I suppose we will just have to wait and see how "sneaky" God is on the rapture.

Originally posted by RJHinds

But do not forget that the rapture has always been taught as the catching up of the believers that remain alive at the coming of the Lord, which is after the tribulation.

"Those who are translated will have to be accounted worthy of it: it is not a gift, but a prize to be won, in the strength of the Lord, by fruits of faith, conduct and works after conversion." - G.H.Pember

"Only those who are devoutly looking and waiting for the Savior's return shall be taken first." - Seiss

"Shall we not face the solemn probability? - one Christian may be taken, and the other left! " - Miss G.A. Morgan

"The teaching of first-fruits translation is said to be a legal doctrine, doing despite to grace. How can this be, when apart from grace it is impossible to live such a life as alone can entitle to the privilege set forth? Nothing can more show one his dependence on grace, or more fire the heart with longings after grace, or more animate to believing prayer for grace, than a conviction that apart from its constant and abundant reception, we must fail to be ready to see our Lord with joy." - Fuller Gooch

"The Lord may come at any time and suddenly take away His waiting, watchful people, and in view of the appalling times of trouble that will follow the removal of those ' accounted worthy,' every elect child of grace should be found watching an praying always, that he may escape the unparalleled tribulations that await fulfillment " - W. H. Rawlings

"The burden on my spirit day and night is the imminent appearance of our Lord. I pray God to make you ready, and to keep you ready. May your portion be amongst the blessed number that shall be caught up to heaven" - Evan Roberts

"Rather let us ever be on the watch tower of prayer, pleading earnestly that we may be accounted worthy to escape the awful days of vengeance for thus only, abiding in Him, and His Word abiding in us, can we have confidence, or hope to escape the fate of those who shall be shamed from Him in His Presence" - Dr. G. F. Poynder

"A few, comparatively a mere handful of the Church, will be accounted worthy to escape the terrible testing period which is coming upon all flesh" - H.W. Fry

"The translation of these shall be an awakening to the rest " - G. A. Harris

"I must stand by the interpretation which gives to Jesus' words [Matt. 24:42] their highest force, which really ministers the most potent motive to vigilance: the believer's reward is made to turn on his actual position at the Lord's descent. The warning would be quite incongruous on any other view" - Robert Govette

"If I rightly understand my Bible, my God, and His Word, there will be no translation for such as have not lived here below as those who belong to Heaven" - Otto Stockmayer

"To those of God's saints in this Age who are counted worthy to complete escape is to be granted: escape from the awful period of earth-judgments is possible, but it is conditional - Samuel H. Wilkinson

"Like Enoch, those Christians with the traits of Philadelphia grace and fidelity are taken before the judgment of the tribulation. Such as share the Laodicean spirit will be left behind, to awake, repent, and witness for their Lord through that awful time of woe, and whether by martyrdom or translation at the Harvest, be among the saved at last " - G. D. Hooper

"Perilous times are upon us: may it be mine to watch and pray always that I may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that are coming to pass, and to stand before the Son of man! " - John Wilkinson

Originally posted by sonship

But do not forget that the rapture has always been taught as the catching up of the believers that remain alive at the coming of the Lord, which is after the tribulation.

Here are some commentators on pre-tribulation selective Rapture that you missed.

[quote] "Those who are translated will have to be accounted worthy of it: it is ...[text shortened]... quote]

Copied from [b]D. M. Panton's book Rapture - Schoettle Publishing CO. INC[/b]

Originally posted by RJHinds

It is very possible that these commentators are mistaken or, as sonhouse says it, "full of shyte", too.

Originally posted by sonship

It is very possible that these commentators are mistaken or, as sonhouse says it, "full of shyte", too.

You do seem to be sounding more and more like sonhouse these days. You must be learning a lot from him.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I do not shy away from learning what I can from anyone. But I don't believe sonhouse has much to teach me about the Holy Bible. However, I suspect he would be flattered by your accusation.

Originally posted by sonship
To imply that a brother like [b]Evan Roberts was " full of (explicit deleted) " as you accused is beneath any serious Christian supposedly interested in the Gospel. I would expect an atheist to make that accusation.

Go read about the Welsh Revival and what major role the prayers and gospel preaching of Evan Roberts played in that. Then you ca ...[text shortened]... e full of what you said they were full of sounds worse than Atheism coming from an evangelical.[/b]

It is very possible that these commentators are mistaken or, as sonhouse says it, "full of shyte", too.

Originally posted by sonship
To say they were full of what you said they were full of sounds worse than Atheism coming from an evangelical.