Originally posted by RJHinds
Are you trying to act like an idiot again?

Seems you are a big boy that's learning to wipe his nose properly. Keep it up.😛

Originally posted by sonhouse
Yeah, have to admit, just a bit under 2000, so I didn't see the earlier ones......

When last you saw the Hubble photos of deep space where you see hundreds of galaxies. And thats just a tiny part of the universe. We dont have a clue how far the universe extends or how many galaxies there are. There must be galaxies by the billions and billions.

Stare at the photo for a while and you get an idea of how tiny and insignificant we are. We cant even begin to guess whats going on out there. My guess is that the universe is teeming with intelligent life. Or maybe im wrong .. there could be no life at all. Pure guess work.

And that is how you are ... you are here .. one little insignificant human with half a brain trying to claim for a fact that he knows for sure what happened 6000 years ago. You dont know jack $hhitt .. and thats the truth. Your insignificant conclusions are no doubt biased and clouded by probably an abused childhood or bad experiences with parents and others you came in contact with. But your meagre 40 or 50 years of bad experiences cannot void several thousand years of history which tells the opposite story.

What we do know for sure is based on the Bible and some historical records and a little archeology. Plus what was handed down from generation to generation.

Bottom line ? Your conclusions tell that you are a rash and unthinking person, and that you dont care to wait to have all the facts on the table before making a decision. Thats one of signs of immaturity. So .. grow up.

Originally posted by Rajk999
When last you saw the Hubble photos of deep space where you see hundreds of galaxies. And thats just a tiny part of the universe. We dont have a clue how far the universe extends or how many galaxies there are. There must be galaxies by the billions and billions.

Stare at the photo for a while and you get an idea of how tiny and insignificant we are. We ...[text shortened]... he facts on the table before making a decision. Thats one of signs of immaturity. So .. grow up.

I like sonhouse's thinking on the universe. His many contributions to the science forum show that he puts more thinking into his posts than you and a few others would have make out.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
I like sonhouse's thinking on the universe. His many contributions to the science forum show that he puts more thinking into his posts than you and a few others would have make out.

How much thinking went into this post ...

I would never perpetrate such a fraud. I can't understand how billions of people could fall for it. Great salesmanship for such a death ridden religion. How many people have been killed in this centuries long fight between Christianity and Islam? How many more deaths will it take before people understand this is not about spirituality, but about the simple thrust of power?

Sure, you can claim about all the good religions do, helping the poor and such but that is really just a selfish response, keep the people on your side so your organizations can keep its throttle hold on its members.

Like I said, the biggest scam in 3000 years.

Originally posted by sonhouse
No fundamental truth, there are too many religions saying too many contradictory things for there to be truth in any of them. Nobody knows anything more than anyone else on the planet, we are all in the dark when it comes to fundamental truths. Most religions, Christianity, Islam, Judaism and the like are more concerned with controlling men and subjugating women.

This is not spirituality, this is control pure and simple.

There is reality in much of what you have written here and later in the thread.

Today my brother sent me a link to a video of a largish town on the coast of Japan as the cataclysmic tsunami came to it. The video is about 12 or 15 minutes long, taken by a man amongst as many of the town folk that had made it to a higher hill overlooking the town. The audio was the sounds and voicings, the crying out, the sobbing and the shrieks of the people around him and in the background the steady growing sounds of a largish town, its many homes, factories, hospitals, temples, being destroyed with the rising clouds of dust, and some fires visible in the far distance breaking out. They saw it grow bigger and bigger, first 4 or 5 kilometers away until it was enveloping and destroying the many house and streets directly below them, and further left inland. Some people trying desperately to get away. Some didn't.

Over to the left you could see a small group of people trying to help a man in a wheelchair, one man went to run as he saw what was coming, looked back at the man in the wheelchair and then turned around to help him with the others. They were all swallowed up. The sobs and cries continued to the end of the video. and I couldn't forget that man and that moment. He had faced his own truth and did not fail. It could have been a killer tornado in US, or an all consuming speeding bushfire in Australia.

I really don't care what we believe is "truth" or not believe, or what I believe....we all have our "truths" arising within us, what we hold as valued behaviours and attitudes in which we seek to be honest, caring, compassionate, strong and courageous.

To me it is more important right now that as individuals and as societies and as a planet we start facing our own "truths", the truths that are more about our good values than greedily accumulating money and "things", more about our care of nature rather than how to exploit it, put away our dreadful weapons and "beat them into ploughshares". We will all die one way or another, but how will we die, and more importantly irregardless of belief, how will we live? I realised the other day I haven't lost my idealism, I thought I might have. It was just over-whelmed by the "no ideals" lot. We need to re-establish our personal ideals and stick to them through water and fire, atheist or believer...for we really may need something to hold onto in the coming days.

Originally posted by Taoman
There is reality in much of what you have written here and later in the thread.

Today my brother sent me a link to a video of a largish town on the coast of Japan as the cataclysmic tsunami came to it. The video is about 12 or 15 minutes long, taken by a man amongst as many of the town folk that had made it to a higher hill overlooking the town. The audio ...[text shortened]... or believer...for we really may need something to hold onto in the coming days.

In the coming days if the climate goes to shhit and the temp goes up 4 or 5 degrees and the oceans rise to cover the coastal cities and we can't grow crops, there will be no help from your god or any other of the so-called gods billions of people worship. We can all fade away into extinction just like the dinosaurs and the planet will go on as usual, the climate problem will be solved by the extinction of mankind and something new will evolve maybe in a few million years.

All 7 billion of us can wish upon a star till the cows come home but that won't make a god come down and save us from our sorry asss.

In no way am I saying there is no god, just there is no god who gives a crap about what happens to mankind. If anything, such a god probably thinks of us as a cancer screwing up a perfectly jewel like planet.

Originally posted by sonhouse
In the coming days if the climate goes to shhit and the temp goes up 4 or 5 degrees and the oceans rise to cover the coastal cities and we can't grow crops, there will be no help from your god or any other of the so-called gods billions of people worship. We can all fade away into extinction just like the dinosaurs and the planet will go on as usual, the cl ...[text shortened]... thing, such a god probably thinks of us as a cancer screwing up a perfectly jewel like planet.

As the late great Bill Hicks once said -

'We're a virus with shoes'

Originally posted by Proper Knob
As the late great Bill Hicks once said -

'We're a virus with shoes'

Good one! Humans are the worse thing to happen to planet Earth since the bombardment days of asteroid hits every day.

Originally posted by sonhouse
In the coming days if the climate goes to shhit and the temp goes up 4 or 5 degrees and the oceans rise to cover the coastal cities and we can't grow crops, there will be no help from your god or any other of the so-called gods billions of people worship. We can all fade away into extinction just like the dinosaurs and the planet will go on as usual, the cl ...[text shortened]... thing, such a god probably thinks of us as a cancer screwing up a perfectly jewel like planet.

If you are talking about God or gods that pull levers and protect the good and punish the bad etc, an ancient human, and to me, a somewhat primitive way of thinking, I agree with you.

Beyond these simplistic and perhaps comforting views, the fact that the Universe and life is full of ways of unexpected dying, dramatically or quietly, does not mean our living right now and here cannot be without spiritual quality or refusal to seek greater social and personal ethical living. Some will pursue that in simple overtly erroneous ways (to one's own way of thinking), and others more sophisticated.,

May I ask what is your form of meaning and spirituality? My asking does not mean I am implying you have none. I would be interested in your expression of it, if you can, in the light of what you are saying.

Originally posted by Taoman
If you are talking about God or gods that pull levers and protect the good and punish the bad etc, an ancient human, and to me, a somewhat primitive way of thinking, I agree with you.

Beyond these simplistic and perhaps comforting views, the fact that the Universe and life is full of ways of unexpected dying, dramatically or quietly, does not mean our liv would be interested in your expression of it, if you can, in the light of what you are saying.

I just feel 'spiritual' and 'meaning' are what we make of it, coming from within ourselves and not from some outside source.

For instance, there is research showing stimulating the right part of the brain gives almost every subject a 'religious' feeling, feeling like there are entities in the room with the subjects. It seems to point to a hard wiring in the brain that sets us up to believe in the supernatural since when that part of the brain is activated you think you are seeing things that are not there.

I think this is the basis for all the ancient explanations for fears of everyday life.

On the other hand, there are certainly things going on in the universe today that could have hidden aspects in our life, like dark matter, dark energy and so forth.

Our ordinary matter, the stuff of the sun, Earth and us, is only about 4 percent of the stuff in the universe, we are in the minority matterwise and the rest is stuff that passes through us like microwave energy, we don't feel it but it can still effect us.
There might be something found that interacts with us in ways we don't understand yet.

I almost get the feeling there is a shadow universe all around us we can't feel or see, maybe duplicating our life in some multidimensional way and if that way is found we may yet find a way to external spirituality but that's the only thing I can think of that would lend any credence to supernatural claims.

Originally posted by sonhouse
I just feel 'spiritual' and 'meaning' are what we make of it, coming from within ourselves and not from some outside source.

For instance, there is research showing stimulating the right part of the brain gives almost every subject a 'religious' feeling, feeling like there are entities in the room with the subjects. It seems to point to a hard wiring in ...[text shortened]... t's the only thing I can think of that would lend any credence to supernatural claims.

you're onto some good stuff there.
Of course the most important part of your post was "coming from within ourselves", as long as we keep lookimg inward we cant go wrong. (It's a process of elimination and practice, this spiritual business)

I find it can get a bit frustrating trying to communicate this stuff, but where would we be if we didn't even try?

Originally posted by sonhouse
In the coming days if the climate goes to shhit and the temp goes up 4 or 5 degrees and the oceans rise to cover the coastal cities and we can't grow crops, there will be no help from your god or any other of the so-called gods billions of people worship. We can all fade away into extinction just like the dinosaurs and the planet will go on as usual, the cl ...[text shortened]... thing, such a god probably thinks of us as a cancer screwing up a perfectly jewel like planet.

Why can't you do something about it, instead of just whining about it.
Why does an atheist need God to do anything to help him.

Originally posted by sonhouse
No fundamental truth, there are too many religions saying too many contradictory things for there to be truth in any of them. Nobody knows anything more than anyone else on the planet, we are all in the dark when it comes to fundamental truths. Most religions, Christianity, Islam, Judaism and the like are more concerned with controlling men and subjugating women.

This is not spirituality, this is control pure and simple.

Sorry for joining this debate rather late. Please allow me to submit that we need to agree on definitions of " Universal Truth " and "Religion".
By Religion are you implying certain organised and structured religions like Christianity,Judaism,Islam or are you talking about all religions including Hinduism,Buddhism,Jainism,Sikhism et al ? Or are you talking about a Belief System called Religion ?
Organised and structured religions have caused many a strife and bloodshed,no doubt. Let us not go over that well trodden ground. Many other belief systems like Nazism,Communism etc. have also caused immense misery all over the planet.Humans are cruel animals not long evolved from apes,please vide Desmond Morris.
A belief system like religion by itself never caused any harm.A Belief System like religion will appeal to the need of humans to believe in something or someone who/which will make sense of the perplexing reality around them.Faith is a very strong anchor.We believe in something like Love,Friendship,Civilised Behaviour,Familial Relations and so on which comfort us ,sustain us,makes us stronger to deal with the Angst of being so weak and lonely in this mostly dead universe.Why are you seeking " Universal Truth " in a belief system?Religion is NOT a scientific theory to be proved by equations based on axioms. The Quantum Theory can never prevent a human being from feeling lost and helpless. Many a scientists read their weekly horoscopes precisely because they are not logic crunching automata but weak humans.Science with all its pretensions can never replace Faith. While Superstition is stupid and primitive,let us give credit to Faith.

Originally posted by sonhouse
I just feel 'spiritual' and 'meaning' are what we make of it, coming from within ourselves and not from some outside source.

For instance, there is research showing stimulating the right part of the brain gives almost every subject a 'religious' feeling, feeling like there are entities in the room with the subjects. It seems to point to a hard wiring in ...[text shortened]... t's the only thing I can think of that would lend any credence to supernatural claims.

Thanks. Our meanings do arise from within.

I agree with most of what you express, but think some is too black and white. "No truth in any religion" is a BIG statement, really. Also, some in their highest forms, are rationally based philosophies rather than theistic religions.

It is interesting to me that apparently there actually IS a "religious gene", wiring sensitivity to religious feeling/expression into the brain. One then asks, why?

Originally posted by Taoman
Thanks. Our meanings do arise from within.

I agree with most of what you express, but think some is too black and white. "No truth in any religion" is a BIG statement, really. Also, some in their highest forms, are rationally based philosophies rather than theistic religions.

It is interesting to me that apparently there actually IS a "religious gene", wiring sensitivity to religious feeling/expression into the brain. One then asks, why?

It is interesting to me that apparently there actually IS a "religious gene", wiring sensitivity to religious feeling/expression into the brain. One then asks, why?

The simple answer for the evolutionist is that somehow this gene gave people a survival advantage. The other alternative is that maybe this gene got 'carried' by another gene. We know that genes work in a complicated pattern, the "religious gene" could be involved with another gene to carry out a different function. This function could have given us a survival advantage and the "religious gene" comes along for the ride.

Dawkin's goes into this in greater detail in 'The God Delusion'.