Noah's Ark

Originally posted by ahosyney
Ok I got your point. Of course I belive of GOD , so I belive he can do miracles. But the problem is that all miracles happned many years ago. So we cann't assume that if we were there with the same knowlage we have today that we cann't explain it logicly. I belive that it happned, but I wasn't there to explain it to you.

The other point many things happ ...[text shortened]... that GOD doesn't exist. But for me it is messages from GOD. I hope you understand my point.

There is a saying in the Christian faith. Seek and ye shall find. If you seek the mysteries of God, you will be more inclined to find out about the mechanics of those mysteries than if you merely accept them for what they are. However, no matter how much we seek we will never find out all the mysteries and miracles of God. After all, how can a finite being such as ourselves completely understand an eternal God? This is why faith in an important element to both of our respective beliefs. There will ALWAYS be areas that we do not fully understand or able to fathom. God sees where our "blind spots" are so to speak and so it behooves us to listen to him in regards to those "blind spots".

Have you ever heard the saying, "The devil is in the details"? I think you will find that most things revolve around placing your trust in things you do not completly understand. Do atheists completly understand abiogenesis, for example? How about the Big Bang devoid of devine intervention? I am sure there may be some on these boards who say they do but they are liars if they do. Yet they have faith in these premises by only using scieintific data they are able to assimilate and understand and they assume that because they understand them it must mean there are no miracles and because there are no miracles God must not exist. In reality the details matter little about miraculous events such as the Big Bang. Rather, what matters is the source of these events. Don't you agree?

Originally posted by whodey
There is a saying in the Christian faith. Seek and ye shall find. If you seek the mysteries of God, you will be more inclined to find out about the mechanics of those mysteries than if you merely accept them for what they are. However, no matter how much we seek we will never find out all the mysteries and miracles of God. After all, how can a finite bein ...[text shortened]... ch as the Big Bang. Rather, what matters is the source of these events. Don't you agree?

Yes of course,I agree of course, and that is exactly what I wanted to say. And that is what they don't see.

Originally posted by whodey
Have you ever heard of the book of Enoch? The great flood account is also mentioned in Enoch 67:2 it says, "At this time the angels are working with wood (making an ark) and when it is completed, I shall place my hands upon it and protect it, and the seed of life shall arise from it; and a substittute (generation) will come so that the earth will not remain ...[text shortened]... not say anywhere in scritpure that God will destroy all living beings as in the great flood.

Yes, I've heard of the bood of Enoch, though I must confess that I've never read it. I'm not going to challenge you on God's intervention on the construction of the ark, because there will be no end to the debate. If I am God, and having such a mighty miraculous power, I would choose either to intervene or not. I would either let Noah build the ark on hiw own, or I would just snap my fingers and the ark would be there the next second. I don't think I would help bits and pieces here and there. But that is me. God obviously did it differently.

Your idea of vegetable farming on board the ark is somewhat far-fetched in my opinion. I happened to spend quite some years growing up in a vegetable farm as a kid. Even the shortest cycle would take several weeks for vegetables to grow and reach maturity for consumption. The only way for your 'floating vegetable farm' to work is to allow for a very large space to that the growth rate of the vegetables could catch up with the consumption rate. And then there is the problem dealing with the diet of different types of animals. Some animals, eg tigers and lions eat meat, not plants. You can't grow meat like that. So we are forced to the conclusion of rearing animals for the sole purpose of feeding other animals on board?

Your idea about the olive leaf is also interesting. Let us consider your proposal on a possible explanation -- that the olive was located on the a higher elevation, perhaps indicating on the top of the mountains? I am from the Malaysian state of Sabah. We have the tallest mountain in this region. It stands about 4100 metres above mean sea level. I've climbed that mountain several times over these years. I can tell you that up there it's barren rock. Because of the altitude and temperature etc, hardly any plants can survive the harsh condition. So it would be interesting to know if olive is such a resilient plant. Perhaps someone who knows more about olive can comment on this.

The only thing I would agree with you is that humans would probably destroy themselves, rather than God doing the honour. Of course humans have the strange habit of destroying their environment. That has been happening through history, and it is still happening now.

Oh well, this thread hasn't come up with what I sought in the beginning but at least it's been an interesting exchange of ideas. Thanks for the opinions.

Originally posted by ckoh1965
Yes, I've heard of the bood of Enoch, though I must confess that I've never read it. I'm not going to challenge you on God's intervention on the construction of the ark, because there will be no end to the debate. If I am God, and having such a mighty miraculous power, I would choose either to intervene or not. I would either let Noah build the ark on hiw o ng but at least it's been an interesting exchange of ideas. Thanks for the opinions.

You are right, God could snap his fingers and build the ark himself. It seems, however, that he prefers to work through the faith of other men. This is the God of the Bible. He requires faith.

I may get into a whole other debate over this next statement. You say that the elevation would have been to high to sustain the life of an olive tree. Could the atmosphere have been different pre-flood eath to that of post flood earth? Try reading Genesis before the flood and after the flood. It seems as though the life spans of men before the flood reached almost a 1,000 years. Then miraculously after the flood, they only live to be about a 120 years. (Genesis 6:3) Why? Do you think they changed authors half way through Genesis, or is there a message there? Could the atmosphere of pre-flood earth have been different from the post-flood earth that could have been more of a "paradise like atmosphere" that could have been more condusive to life? For example, perhaps they could have been better sheilded from the harmful radiation of the sun via a different atmosphere before the flood. You also look at references to how it never rained on earth pre-flood but rather a mist gave plants their hydration. (Genesis 2:5-6) There are many theories out there such as the canopy theory etc. that have taken such hints in Genesis to heart. Perhaps it was a paradise on earth before the flood even after the fall of man.

As far as my idea of vegetable farming on the ark, I was merely offering the suggestion that there are many possibilities that you may not have thought of including that of miracles. That was my only reason for suggesting such a thing. After all, the entire account of an ark being built with animals coming willingly to its safe haven is miraculous in and of itself. It seems odd to me that you then require an explanation as to how they ate and drank. In short, if you insist on requiring a logical explanation for every miracle in the Bible, you need not read a Bible, rather, you need a book of science.

Originally posted by whodey
You are right, God could snap his fingers and build the ark himself. It seems, however, that he prefers to work through the faith of other men. This is the God of the Bible. He requires faith.

I may get into a whole other debate over this next statement. You say that the elevation would have been to high to sustain the life of an olive tree. Could the ...[text shortened]... for every miracle in the Bible, you need not read a Bible, rather, you need a book of science.

Or God could simply snap his fingers and then the chosen humans and the pairs of animals would be able to float on the surface of the water! That way, there is no need to build the ark even! Another snap of the fingers, and all these living beings won't feel hungry or thirsty for a whole year. Yes, that is all possible, but as you said, would require faith.

This may come as a surprise to you, but I do try very hard to allow for some miracles. For example, I didn't question on the animals willingly assembling themselves in the ark. I guess it goes without saying that that can only happen by miraculous means. But where do I draw the line? Is it too much to ask at least about food and water which are essential items for living? Since the bible is so specific about the dimensions of the ark, it is so unreasonable for me to raise the question on space restriction? Or in the end, do I just fall back to miracle to explain everything?

Originally posted by ckoh1965
Or God could simply snap his fingers and then the chosen humans and the pairs of animals would be able to float on the surface of the water! That way, there is no need to build the ark even! Another snap of the fingers, and all these living beings won't feel hungry or thirsty for a whole year. Yes, that is all possible, but as you said, would require faith. ion on space restriction? Or in the end, do I just fall back to miracle to explain everything?

How then do you feel about God providing manna from heaven to feed the children of Israel in the wilderness? Do you think some miracles as being more impractible than others?

As far as the space restriction goes, are you saying it is impossible or unlikely?


Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with asking questions. As a matter of fact, I encourage it. When I became a Chrsitian I became a Christian despite many unanswered questions roaming around in my head. They bothered me so much that I continued to pray abuot these questions and searching the scriptures for answers and asking fellow christians. Slowly but surely each question was revealed to me by God in some form or other to where I had peace about them. Don't think, however, that I have all of my questions answered, just the ones that troubled me the most. As I see it, you have two options. You can either reject the Bible which will prompt you to not seek answers because you will then not believe they exist, or you can believe it is the truth despite your qualms and continue to search for the answers. The choice is yours.

Originally posted by whodey
How then do you feel about God providing manna from heaven to feed the children of Israel in the wilderness? Do you think some miracles as being more impractible than others?

Hmmm... this is the second time here you've mentioned about this story of 'the children of Israel..." To be quite honest, I'm not so well-versed on biblical history, and I am not familiar with this particular story.

But from the little findings that I've found so far, I can say this: The bible was written by many authors spanning so many generations. It has been said that the contents of the bible were inspired by God. Yet in my recent search online, I found several 'versions' of the bible. They are not verbatims of each other! That suggests to me the possibility that the authors of these different versions may have edited some portions of the bible. Maybe it was done for the sake of using clearer language for easier comprehension; maybe some information has been added here and there to add more substance, I don't know. But if this 'editing' of the bible can happen now, I am sure it can also happen hundreds of years ago. After all, all those authors of eons ago were also humans.

And then I went a little further. I noticed that the many authors of the bible were actually not eye-witnesses to the events that they wrote about in the bible also. They claimed that those information came from people who were allegedly eye-witnesses. But bear in mind that the events occured generations before the times of the respective authors.

I have this thing about eye-witnesses. I read somewhere that a past president of the USA once claimed that he saw a UFO. Can you imagine a president being an eye-witness to a UFO? Do you think his testimony is reliable? Of course it was later discovered that what he saw was actually a meteor or some rocks from space.

So how do I feel about "God providing manna from heaven to feed the children..."? Well, two possibilities leap to my mind. First, of course that story was a fiction -- that it never actually happened. Secondly, that God did it by magical means. Since throughout my life I haven't seen 'magic' other than those performed by David Copperfield, I'm inclined to the first possible explanation. But I may be wrong, I don't know.

Originally posted by ckoh1965
Hmmm... this is the second time here you've mentioned about this story of 'the children of Israel..." To be quite honest, I'm not so well-versed on biblical history, and I am not familiar with this particular story.

But from the little findings that I've found so far, I can say this: The bible was written by many authors spanning so many generations. It ...[text shortened]... m inclined to the first possible explanation. But I may be wrong, I don't know.

Speaking of miracles, would you like to hear of one? I was driving down a two lane road and I got behind a slow moving van. I could see it was a straight shot down the road so I went to pass the van. Unbeknownst to me, however, there was a big dip in the road I could not see. The next thing I knew I was face to face with a semi as we were heading for each other at about 60 miles per hour. The next thing I remember I was in a field with my car in tact and the semi gone from sight. There were no skids on the road and not even a mark on my car. I don't remember a thing and have no idea how I got in the field let alone how I survived the ordeal. I guess it is life experiences such as this that have helped me to believe in miracles. Perhaps you have witnessed some as well?

Originally posted by whodey
Speaking of miracles, would you like to hear of one? I was driving down a two lane road and I got behind a slow moving van. I could see it was a straight shot down the road so I went to pass the van. Unbeknownst to me, however, there was a big dip in the road I could not see. The next thing I knew I was face to face with a semi as we were heading for each ...[text shortened]... h as this that have helped me to believe in miracles. Perhaps you have witnessed some as well?

Prove that your experience was a miracle.

Originally posted by XanthosNZ
Prove that your experience was a miracle.

Did you read the post?🙄

Originally posted by whodey
Did you read the post?🙄

Say you won the lottery, would that be a miracle?

Originally posted by XanthosNZ
Say you won the lottery, would that be a miracle?

Yes. You see I don't play the lotto.

Originally posted by whodey
Yes. You see I don't play the lotto.

What if you had a friend who played the lotto and owned a orphanage. The orphanage was going broke and he was on the verge of selling the children into slavery to pay his debts (he isn't a very nice man, why the hell are you friends with him?). He wins the jackpot the day before he is selling the kids. Did God provide a miracle to save the children?
Should we inform the lottery comission that their draw isn't random at all but is instead controlled by a greater power?

Originally posted by whodey
Speaking of miracles, would you like to hear of one? I was driving down a two lane road and I got behind a slow moving van. I could see it was a straight shot down the road so I went to pass the van. Unbeknownst to me, however, there was a big dip in the road I could not see. The next thing I knew I was face to face with a semi as we were heading for each ...[text shortened]... h as this that have helped me to believe in miracles. Perhaps you have witnessed some as well?

Instead of slamming the brakes, you drove off the road. How is that a miracle? Now if you had woken up in a field in Belarus, that would have been miracle!

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
That is tantamount to saying that the earth itself is the only acceptable cause of the calamity. When the Bible records God telling Noah to join Him in the ark, I must confess an inability to describe this situation in any natural terms. 'Got me there!

Ok, fine. So why not have some intellectual honesty and admit you're just believing the story on faith? Why quote a website with a (purported) point-by-point response to skeptical questions? Why do these questions and their responses even hold any interest for you if you've already accepted the story on faith?