1. Joined
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    31 Oct '06 14:32
    According to the bible, all but a few of the living things in the world was once killed by the great flood. Those very few who survived were Noah and his immediate family, along with male and female pairs of all the animals in the world. This is the story of Noah and the Ark. This imaginative story is very interesting, but I’d like to hear opinions on some of the finer aspects of it.


    The Ark

    (i) Size & Design

    The bible is very specific about this particular piece of information. The ark was built like this: 450ft long; 75ft wide; 45ft high. It is to accommodate 3 floors, i.e. lower, middle and upper decks (Genesis 6.15). I would imagine that a few thousand years ago, it would have been quite a major construction project! Nothing was actually mentioned on the navigational equipment, so it is possible to argue that for the sake of saving space on board, the absence of a bridge where Noah was able to carry out navigational tasks. It is hard to imagine how a 450-footer could have accommodated all the animals in pairs, not forgetting numerous species and sub-species, even after allowing for the 3 floors on board. Of course a pair of elephants, for example, would have occupied so much space. And there are other huge animals too. Furthermore, some animals are accustomed to certain ranges of temperatures for survival – some require cold environment, while others require warm climate etc.

    Can anyone here with ship-building expertise shed some light on the above scenario?

    (ii) Food & Water Storage

    Nothing was mentioned on clean water and food storage capacity, bearing in mind that the ark was to be floating for almost a year. I’m not forgetting that some animals – for example, bears – might have hibernated during the flood, and hence required little food. However, the vast majority of the animals are not hibernating animals. They needed daily ration of food and water. My best guess is that the water and food required for so many animals and some humans for all those months would have been quite a lot, so storage/ration of water and food would have been a tricky problem.

    Taking the population of the ark into account, I’d say at least several tons of food would have been required on a daily basis. But I must admit that I haven’t gone into detailed analysis and calculations on the actual amount of food/water required. Hmm… I wonder if it is possible to determine the amount. Anyway, logically speaking, quite a large space would have been required for storage purposes.

    And then even if the storage situation could be solved, one wonders on the preservation of these foods. Of course fruits and vegetables have very short shelf lives in the supermarkets in spite of modern technologies like refrigerators etc. I suppose it is safe to rule out canned food at that time. So it would be interesting to know how these foods were preserved in the ark.

    (iii) Construction Materials & Duration

    Now assuming that Noah had the expertise on such an undertaking, I wonder the duration for the completion of the project. I suppose his family members must have helped him, but it was still a huge undertaking. In my opinion, it might have taken several years, if not several decades to complete. This should not be a big mystery, since apparently people lived to be several hundred years old those good old days. So several decades wouldn’t have been an issue. Then there was the question of building materials, the most significant must have been the supply of ‘good’ wood (Genesis 6.14). Considering the size of the ark, it must have required a lot of wood.

    Just to expand a little bit on the construction material, namely wood, it is interesting to know just how long it would take an average person to chop down a tree and then saw the log to turn it into sawn timber. Of course there was no motorized round saw at the time, so all the cutting and sawing would have had to be done manually. Therefore, it would have taken quite a long time just to get all the sawn timber ready, let alone to actually getting down to building the ship.

    If indeed it took decades to complete the project, I wonder how long a sawn cypress wood could last. One can’t help wondering if the wood would rot long before the ark was completed.

    (iv) Congestion

    Working out the space of 450ft x 75ft x 3 floors, gives an approximate 101,250 sq. ft floor space (ignoring the thickness of the walls/partitions). That is equivalent of about 2.3 acres, give and take. And that is assuming the ark was just a square box. Obviously if it wasn’t a ‘box’ then the space on board would have been lesser; maybe substantially lesser. Anyway, the point is that space would have been very, very limited on board. Congestion problems must have prevailed throughout all those months during the flood. I asked a friend who worked in a zoo for some years, if it’s possible for all the pairs of animals in the world to fit into an area of 2.3 acres, bearing in mind that a substantial portion of that space was for the storage of food and water. After considering for a short moment, he gave the expected answer – NO.

    How was the ventilation problem overcome? Since we are talking about living animals, all would require air to breathe. Nothing in the bible indicates any ventilation system, although there was a mention of a space of 18 inches between the roof and the sides of the boat (Genesis 6.16). Maybe that was where fresh air got into the ark. But those of you who are familiar with building construction would know that for such a large floor space, it is necessary to have some sort of ventilation system, eg. using fans to facilitate the flow of air. Moreover it is also unclear where those animals on the lower decks got their air for breathing. Perhaps what’s even more mind-boggling was that apparently all the windows were closed during the flood (although this was not specifically mentioned). Only after months floating in the flood did Noah open a window he had made in the ark (Genesis 8.6).


    After the Flood

    The water kept going down, and on the first day of the tenth month the tops of the mountains appeared (Genesis 8.5).

    Meanwhile, Noah sent out a dove to see if the water had gone down, but since the water still covered all the land, the dove did not find a place to light. If flew back to the boat, and Noah reached out and took it in (Genesis 8.8-9).

    He (Noah) waited another seven days and sent out the dove again. It returned to him in the evening with a fresh olive leaf in its beak. So Noah knew that the water had gone down (Genesis 8.10-11).

    Let’s consider the flow of the story for a bit. The bible says that the first dove couldn’t find a place to land. Then seven days later, again the dove was sent off. And that evening it brought back a freshly plucked olive leaf. We are now able to deduce that the water must have subsided further during that 7-day window. OK, fine, we progress.

    But now a fresh dilemma arises. Are we to assume that the olive tree survived almost a year underwater? Can anyone with specific knowledge on olive trees comment on this? The other possible explanation is that the olive trees did not survive the flood; but was somehow able to quickly regenerate to the extent of growing fresh leaves within that 7 days – a weak conclusion, in my opinion.

    Any comments?

    Ummm… before that, please don’t give me anything in the nature of “God can do anything…”

    Just for the record, I am reading the bible from the beginning as I have promised dj2becker. As I have expected, I am already having trouble figuring out the logic of it contents at this early stages. But I will read some more just out of curiosity. Who knows by a stroke of miracle I might just find something logical and meaningful in it.

    Right now, one conclusion that I can make is that God forgets too! He said, “Never again will I put the earth under the curse because of what man does; I know that from the time he is young his thoughts are evil. Never again will I destroy all living beings as I have done this time.” (Genesis 8.21). But somehow someone told me just the other day that judgement day will come again. That the world will be covered in fire etc. etc. etc. Either God forgets his promise, or even better, people can conveniently say that he does keep his promise. After all he did say “… never again will I destroy all living beings as I HAVE DONE THIS TIME.”, meaning that he WILL DESTROY again, but only this time he will do it with fire, not water! But I haven’t reached that part yet, so I will refrain from making further comments until I read the part about this so-called judgement day myself.
  2. Joined
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    31 Oct '06 14:39
    Originally posted by ckoh1965
    According to the bible, all but a few of the living things in the world was once killed by the great flood. Those very few who survived were Noah and his immediate family, along with male and female pairs of all the animals in the world. This is the story of Noah and the Ark. This imaginative story is very interesting, but I’d like to hear opinions on some ...[text shortened]... in from making further comments until I read the part about this so-called judgement day myself.
    Right, now that you've debunked the flood, what's next?
  3. Territories Unknown
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    31 Oct '06 14:41
    Originally posted by sugiezd
    Right, now that you've debunked the flood, what's next?
    He hasn't scratched the surface of the flood account, let alone 'debunked' the same.
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    31 Oct '06 14:45
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    He hasn't scratched the surface of the flood account, let alone 'debunked' the same.
    Still trying to scratch some more here... and am hoping you can help a bit?
  5. Territories Unknown
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    31 Oct '06 15:00
    Originally posted by ckoh1965
    Still trying to scratch some more here... and am hoping you can help a bit?
    There are many resources available that can provide account information of the even the smallest details of the Flood. While the details have never been challenged, the 'forest for the trees' concept is one to keep in mind.
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    31 Oct '06 15:05
    Originally posted by sugiezd
    Right, now that you've debunked the flood, what's next?
    No, I think what he has done is debunked his own scenerio of what he thinks happened.
  7. Joined
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    31 Oct '06 15:10
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    He hasn't scratched the surface of the flood account, let alone 'debunked' the same.
    Well, he's made a total nonesense of the ark - so what's left?
  8. Joined
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    31 Oct '06 15:11
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    There are many resources available that can provide account information of the even the smallest details of the Flood. While the details have never been challenged, the 'forest for the trees' concept is one to keep in mind.
    Of course, it's all a matter of faith - god can do anything.

    Silly me, I forgot for a second.
  9. Joined
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    31 Oct '06 15:13
    Originally posted by whodey
    No, I think what he has done is debunked his own scenerio of what he thinks happened.
    The dimensions, the timeline and course of events come from the bible.

    Apart from the points he raised, where did all that water come from and where did it go?
  10. Standard membertelerion
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    31 Oct '06 15:18
    Originally posted by sugiezd
    Of course, it's all a matter of faith - god can do anything.

    Silly me, I forgot for a second.
    Exactly. The literal ark account cannot be made compatible with our understandings of physics. There are just so many ways to show that the myth is ridiculous as a 100% accurate account. When you really get done to arguing with literalists about it, they will always revert to magic (i.e., goddunnit).

    No reason to read it literally though. As stories go, it's a pretty cool one.
  11. Standard memberAgerg
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    31 Oct '06 15:18
    Originally posted by sugiezd
    The dimensions, the timeline and course of events come from the bible.

    Apart from the points he raised, where did all that water come from and where did it go?
    pssst..whodey tell em that it came from the planet mercury 😉
  12. Subscriberscoop122
    scoop122
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    31 Oct '06 15:19
    just one quick point. some people believe there was more than one ship made. this would have taken more time but would account for storage, etc. i,m not sure if the bible specifically mentions one ship.
  13. Joined
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    31 Oct '06 16:16
    Well, I started this thread about 40 minutes ago. Then had to go fetch my mom from the airport. Haven't seen her for 3 years. Now I'm back again, and I see that some religious people appeared to have been offended by this thread.

    But at least do you agree that the points that I've raised are logical? I am really interested to know if there are explanations for them.
  14. Joined
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    31 Oct '06 16:17
    Originally posted by scoop122
    just one quick point. some people believe there was more than one ship made. this would have taken more time but would account for storage, etc. i,m not sure if the bible specifically mentions one ship.
    I don't remember reading about a second boat for storage purposes, unless of course there is a different version of the bible. If there is, I'd like to know where I can access it please. Thanks.
  15. Subscriberscoop122
    scoop122
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    31 Oct '06 16:28
    i don't remember where i read it. not a cop-out honestly! but i think the point was that if the bible doesn't say just one ship then there may well have been others. sort of da vinci code stuff. you can draw many inferences from what is not mentioned.
    i think your point about the olive tree is a cracker though!
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