Originally posted by whodeySwerving away from oncoming traffic is hardly miraculous. I'm glad that you survived the event, but I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill.
Lets assume you are right. What if there were no violations of the laws of physics so to speak. Does this then mean that it was not miraculous that I survived? Does the miraculous require the breaking of the natural laws of physics?
Originally posted by AgergDo you regard your life as a miracle or just being lucky?
[b]Does the miraculous require the breaking of the natural laws of physics?
erm...yes
Does this then mean that it was not miraculous that I survived?
erm...yes, of the many people that *do* die...you were one that didn't...you were lucky![/b]
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Do you regard your life as a miracle or just being lucky?
I regard it as neither...I'm one of many humans, that themselves are one of many species of creatures on the planet earth, that is itself one of many planets in the universe...I'm not gifted with extraordinary intellect or almost superhuman physical qualities...I do ok socially but there are people around me that do *far* better...there is nothing that I can do that someone else can't do better. At some point I am going to die, where my existance terminates. (and not at the ripe old age of 950)
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Originally posted by whodeyIt is interesting what you are saying there. In another thread, I have suggested that possibility -- that God did create everything, but is now dead. I mean, why not? Think about it. When he created the world, he was able to communicate to those earlier humans; he spoke to Noah.... he gave instruction to another joker to kill his own son. But now, God has been silent for quite a long time. Those who claim to have 'felt' his presence never actually hear his orders.
Logically you would then have to assume that such a power is either now dead or had never existed to begin with. I think atheists can even agree with this statement. The existence of God = the existence of the miraculous. There is no way around it.
Besides that, there are so many other events that would suggest that God is dead. He couldn't save those thousands of innocent children who died in the tsunami disaster in Indonesia, for example. In so many cases, God has also failed to save people for Osama's actions. Why? Because he is dead! Of course if God is still alive, then he would probably punish us non-believers. Maybe drown us all again, I don't know.
And this brings me to another point that I've been meaning to raise. We are all animals. But humans are clever animals. Somehow we are blessed with brains that can plan, for example. We have conscience. But animals have brains too. They too can think, although they are not so clever. What happens when animals die? Are they also subject to heaven and hell? What happens when a person is born dumb. Although he is human, but born 'stupid', say some unfortunate people born with down syndrome with a mind of a 5-year old. They never get to 'know' God. What happens when they die? Do they gor to heaven on compasionate grounds, or they go straight to hell?
Well, this is obviously drifting far away from the ark, but could you perhaps shed some light on this?
Originally posted by ckoh1965So tell me, was God dead when Adam was allowed to partake of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil? Was God dead when Cain was allowed slay his brother? Was God dead when his people were allowed to be held in bondage in Egypt for hundreds of years? Was God dead when his people were conquered and taken into captivity by such powers as the Assyrians and Babylonians? Was God dead when he allowed his own Son to die on a cross? I think many of us have uttered the same words of Christ as he was dying on the cross, "Father, why have you forsaken me?" and we continue to do so. You see your arguement is that because we suffer, (ie because there is sin in the world and we are allowed to sin), there must not be a God. Unfortunatly, both the sinner and the innocent are effected in much the same way. Did Christ deserve his fate? He too was innocent but suffered because of others sin. Sin is simply a destructive and nondiscriminating force.
It is interesting what you are saying there. In another thread, I have suggested that possibility -- that God did create everything, but is now dead. I mean, why not? Think about it. When he created the world, he was able to communicate to those earlier humans; he spoke to Noah.... he gave instruction to another joker to kill his own son. But now, God has b ...[text shortened]... viously drifting far away from the ark, but could you perhaps shed some light on this?
When you say that God is dead you are making two assumptions. The first of which is he is mortal. The second assumption is that there is a disconnect between creation and the creator that would allow his creation to be able to carry on without him being there. I think both assumptions are flawed to say the least.
I say that you say God is dead because he is not real to you, rather, you only read stories about him that happened to have occured thousands of years ago. What about modern day stories of God touching people today? I have heard of many and am myself included in the mix. Therefore, he is alive to me, but dead as far as you are concerned.
As far as your assertion that man is nothing more than a clever animal, I say you have no choice to believe this since you do not believe in God. However, you have the delimma of recognizing a difference worthy of discussion between man and beast.
As far as who is saved and who is not based on intelligence I would say that God looks at ones heart. Is intelligence what God is after in the Bible? It does not appear to be so, rather, it states he looks at the hearts of men and judges them accordingly. This is contrary to the notion that worth is based upon intelligence that many seem to embrace knowingly or unknowingly. As far as who is saved, however, this is not up to you or me. Why then speculate as to who is saved and who is not? If you believe that there be a God then seek the source and ask the source what is required of you.
Originally posted by AgergI say the opposite. I say you are extradordinary and have special talents and gifts that are unique to you alone. There has never been and will never be another Argerg. Who cares if these talents and gifts may or may not be based on superhuman strength so to speak. So what if you were "superman" Do you think that if you were superman it would change your overall circomstance and/or happiness? What if you were also physically immortal? How would this change your opinion of yourself? Would you then be better than us mere mortals?
[b]Do you regard your life as a miracle or just being lucky?
I regard it as neither...I'm one of many humans, that themselves are one of many species of creatures on the planet earth, that is itself one of many planets in the universe...I'm not gifted with extraordinary intellect or almost superhuman physical qualities...I do ok socially but there are p ...[text shortened]... point I am going to die, where my existance terminates. (and not at the ripe old age of 950)[/b]
Originally posted by whodeyI say you are extradordinary and have special talents and gifts that are unique to you alone.
I say the opposite. I say you are extradordinary and have special talents and gifts that are unique to you alone. There has never been and will never be another Argerg. Who cares if these talents and gifts may or may not be based on superhuman strength so to speak. So what if you were "superman" Do you think that if you were superman it would change your ...[text shortened]... ow would this change your opinion of yourself? Would you then be better than us mere mortals?
Nice thing to say but not even for the sake of argument, I have to assure you that this is incorrect...I am not and never have been extraordinary...none of my talents/abilities are original...only the combination perhaps, and individually they are all surpassed by others...
There has never been and will never be another Argerg.
at work we had this big and ferocious looking spider that stuck around long enough for us to want to give him a name, we affectionately called it Arthur and tried to keep the cleaners away from the webs he had to keep re-building...someone later killed it 🙁 there never has been and never will be that spider again...has it gone to heaven? 😉
Who cares if these talents and gifts may or may not be based on superhuman strength so to speak. So what if you were "superman" Do you think that if you were superman it would change your overall circomstance and/or happiness? What if you were also physically immortal? How would this change your opinion of yourself? Would you then be better than us mere mortals?
a hypothetical scenario that I am sure will never become a reality but just for the sake of argument I don't think it would make me feel better than anyone else because if i was immortal or superman, then I would also assume that I am one of many that evolved with such characteristics too! 😉
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Originally posted by AgergOK, so for the sake of arguement lets assume there is nothing extraordinary about you? Does this commonality effect your worth in any way? Would you consider yourself of any less worth than say superman?
[b]I say you are extradordinary and have special talents and gifts that are unique to you alone.
Nice thing to say but not even for the sake of argument, I have to assure you that this is incorrect...I am not and never have been extraordinary...none of my talents/abilities are original...only the combination perhaps, and individually they are all s would also assume that I am one of many that evolved with such characteristics too! 😉[/b]
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Originally posted by whodeyThis commonality doesn't really effect me...I find my existance as a human more preferable than I imagine I would as a wilderbeast but less preferable than being a wealthy, healthy genius with beautiful, healthy and intelligent women falling adoringly at my feet...but this is just mindless musing, I have to make the best of what I have...as do dogs, cats and spiders etc...
OK, so for the sake of arguement lets assume there is nothing extraordinary about you? Does this commonality effect your worth in any way? Would you consider yourself of any less worth than say superman?
Would you consider yourself of any less worth than say superman?
well, we're still within the realms of a hypothetical scenario that bears no relation to reality...but as opposed to evading your question with saying
"but that would be like asking if I consider myself of any less worth than say God"(even though it's justified)
I'll refine your question to:
"Would you consider yourself of any less worth than say some person for whom no matter what skills you demonstrate to them, they can show that their skill is greater?"
and my answer here is that though I would wish that my skill in just one area was at least equal, I would politely congratulate them and go my own separate way; trying not to lament too much over my ineptitude...until such time that it troubles me no more and I can just carry on as before...I wouldn't consider them anymore important than myself though, no more than I consider myself anymore important than other humans (and as for chickens, cows, and pigs etc.. that I eat, well its nothing personal but I'm a meat eater...unfortunately for them they are edible! and people feed them to me after killing them...I'd expect a tiger wouldn't think twice about chewing me to shreds if I let one)
Where are you taking this particular argument I wonder?..how does it tie in with miracles or Noah's flood?
Originally posted by scottishinnzIn fact, if such a God had made a mistake, or if its creation had done something it didn't want to happen, why not just destroy it all and start again?
What would an omnibenevolent god have anything to be sorry about?
If it's possible to do, wouldn't God have acted this way?
If it's not possible, is - Heaven help us! - God not omnipotent?
Originally posted by amannionIn fact that's exactly what God did! Somehow, He apparently made a mistake. He thought humans would worship him unconditionally. He thought humans would be good and obidient unconditionally. But he was wrong. Some humans were bad, in fact I dare say a fair number of humans were bad! They still are! So God flooded the whole world and started over again. That is if there's any truth in the story of the ark, of course.
In fact, if such a God had made a mistake, or if its creation had done something it didn't want to happen, why not just destroy it all and start again?
If it's possible to do, wouldn't God have acted this way?
If it's not possible, is - Heaven help us! - God not omnipotent?