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Spirituality

Spirituality

  1. Standard member KellyJay
    Walk your Faith
    20 Jul '18 03:22
    John 3:36
    Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

    Romans 2:5
    But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.

    Revelation 14:10
    he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

    Matthew 18:8
    And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.

    Matthew 25:41
    “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

    Matthew 25:46
    And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

    Jude 1:7
    just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

    Matthew 5:22
    But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.

    Luke 12:5
    But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!
  2. Subscriber FMF
    Main Poster
    20 Jul '18 03:44
    KellyJay, what is the deterrence value to non-believers of this [to them] not-credible threat?

    What is the coercion effect on non-believers of religious/superstitious declarations that they see no reason to believe?

    With this in mind, what is the purpose of trying to threaten them with such "punishments"?

    And what would be the purpose of carrying out such punishments on non-believers even if they were real, if the non-believers who are still alive had no reason to believe the threats were real because there is absolutely zero proof or evidence or indication of any kind that this punishment-by-torture is real?
  3. 20 Jul '18 05:40 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @kellyjay
    John 3:36
    Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

    Romans 2:5
    But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.

    Revelation 14:10
    he also will drink the win ...[text shortened]... : fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!
    Before we discuss this I have one question KellyJay.

    Is all of this that you have posted literal? Yes, or No.
  4. Standard member KellyJay
    Walk your Faith
    20 Jul '18 07:31 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @fmf
    KellyJay, what is the deterrence value to non-believers of this [to them] not-credible threat?

    What is the coercion effect on non-believers of religious/superstitious declarations that they see no reason to believe?

    With this in mind, what is the purpose of trying to threaten them with such "punishments"?

    And what would be the purpose of carrying ou ...[text shortened]... lutely zero proof or evidence or indication of any kind that this punishment-by-torture is real?
    The full gospel is that God is love, and He has a wrath due to our evil deeds and
    currently the wrath of God is upon the entire human race outside of Christ's grace. Yes
    He is Love, but as Love He cannot put up with our evil and wicked ways, and we are
    already condemn because of the lives we live, not going to be condemn, but condemned
    already. You don't think it is a credible threat, it is not meant to be, it is simply a warning of
    the terror that is not coming, but is. With respect to proof and evidence you have
    trampled over that for over 30 years according to you, nothing I could say is going to
    change your ways, if you had the Holy Spirit in your life and you still turned away, and I
    hope not for your sake, you will not avoid this even if you wanted to.
  5. Subscriber FMF
    Main Poster
    20 Jul '18 07:37 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @kellyjay
    The full gospel is that God is love, and He has a wrath due to our evil deeds and
    currently the wrath of God is upon the entire human race outside of Christ's grace. Yes
    He is Love, but as Love He cannot put up with our evil and wicked ways, and we are
    already condemn because of the lives we live, not going to be condemn, but condemned
    already. You do ...[text shortened]... still turned away, and I
    hope not for your sake, you will not avoid this even if you wanted to.
    My question is about the deterrence value to non-believers of a not-credible threat ~ i.e. your "warning of the terror that is coming" ~ and it is about what is the purpose of torturing non-believers who found it to be a not-credible threat.

    I do not want you to change my ways, KellyJay - you can stop riffing on that.

    What I would like you to do is to answer the question about the purpose of the threat of torture if that purpose is not deterrence and what is the purpose of torture if the deterrence didn't work because it was not credible. Please don't run away from this conversation like you did the last two.
  6. Subscriber FMF
    Main Poster
    20 Jul '18 07:48 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @kellyjay
    You don't think it is a credible threat, it is not meant to be, it is simply a warning of
    the terror that is not coming, but is.
    It's a warning of terror to come if one doesn't comply with something but "it's not meant to be a credible threat"?? You sometimes sound like you're kind of trying to take the piss out of both of us with the things you say. Perhaps it's your slapdash writing/thinking? How on earth can "a warning of terror to come" be "not meant to be a threat"?
  7. 20 Jul '18 07:53
    Originally posted by @divegeester
    Before we discuss this I have one question KellyJay.

    Is all of this that you have posted literal? Yes, or No.
    Can’t you even answer this simple question?
  8. 20 Jul '18 08:08
    What point is KellyJay trying to make with his OP?

    That Tom Wolsey, Suzianne, myself and other Christians who do not believe in the doctrine of eternal torture, are wrong...is that it?
  9. Subscriber FMF
    Main Poster
    20 Jul '18 08:15
    Originally posted by @kellyjay
    [God] is Love, but as Love He cannot put up with our evil and wicked ways, and we are
    already condemn because of the lives we live, not going to be condemn, but condemned
    already.
    You say yours are "evil and wicked ways" and you say mine are "evil and wicked ways".

    But you then claim that you are going to have everlasting life - despite your "evil and wicked ways" - and I am going to be tortured for eternity - because of my "evil and wicked ways" and this is because I do not believe I have been - or can be - "forgiven" by Jesus, like you do.

    How is that threat that I am going to be tortured for eternity ~ which I think is ridiculous and utterly not credible and you have not one jot of proof that it is real ~ how is it supposed to coerce me into believing that I am going to have everlasting life like you do?
  10. Standard member KellyJay
    Walk your Faith
    20 Jul '18 08:19
    Originally posted by @fmf
    My question is about the deterrence value to non-believers of a not-credible threat ~ i.e. your "warning of the terror that is coming" ~ and it is about what is the purpose of torturing non-believers who found it to be a not-credible threat.

    I do not want you to change my ways, KellyJay - you can stop riffing on that.

    What I would like you to do is to a ...[text shortened]... use it was not credible. Please don't run away from this conversation like you did the last two.
    It isn't a threat to non-believers, scripture teaches the whole of humanity is under threat,
    as great as the salvation of God is, His wrath will be no different. When God pours out His
    wrath there will be no mercy mixed into it, no lightening the load due to our abilities to
    take the stress, it is going to be poured out and the suffering will be done right in front of
    God and His angels for evil and wicked lives of sinners.

    As those of us who take Jesus' gift of salvation due to the grace He offers because He
    took on sin upon Himself, those who don't accept Jesus will stand before God in their sin
    and when we are called into account, it will be for every word, every deed, everything
    done in secret our lives next to a Holy God, God is going to come down on the wicked
    and sinners.

    Those in Christ Jesus receive no condemnation, those out side of Jesus' grace and
    mercy are condemned already. God is the King of the whole universe, from the smallest
    particle to galaxies, nothing is here without Him, and it is all held together by the power
    of His Word. He has been showering us with mercy in this life for our sinful lives by not
    striking us down where we stand for the things we do against Him, and other people from
    name calling to rape and murder. He has been putting up with all of that due to His long
    suffering, His loving kindness for His name sake, He loves us, but that restraint He tells
    us has limits and He will not always put up with our sins. This isn't an argument between
    us and God this is the universe we are in and the limited time we have to act is getting
    smaller every day. So if we cannot forgive, we will not be forgiven, if we hate man as the
    scripture says how can we claim to love God who we do not see, if we are not loving the
    people around us we are again breaking His commands.

    An accounting is coming, if it can act as a deterrence good, but it is coming if it is or isn't
    no matter what. It is coming even if we refuse to acknowledge it, if we acknowledge but
    don't plan on doing anything about it until later, as if that is a thing we could do. Not acting
    today, means you are locked into your sins, and if you end up before God like that you
    will pay dearly.



    1 Peter 4:18
    And “If the righteous is scarcely saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”
  11. Subscriber FMF
    Main Poster
    20 Jul '18 08:22
    Originally posted by @kellyjay
    The full gospel is that God is love, and He has a wrath due to our evil deeds and
    currently the wrath of God is upon the entire human race outside of Christ's grace. Yes
    He is Love, but as Love He cannot put up with our evil and wicked ways, and we are
    already condemn because of the lives we live, not going to be condemn, but condemned
    already.
    If you ended up being condemned to be tortured for eternity because of your "evil deeds" and your "wicked ways" and because of the life that you live and because of God's "wrath" and because He "cannot put up with" your "evil", if you were being tortured for eternity for all this, would you accept your punishment and still love Jesus regardless?
  12. Subscriber FMF
    Main Poster
    20 Jul '18 08:29
    Originally posted by @kellyjay
    It isn't a threat to non-believers, scripture teaches the whole of humanity is under threat,
    as great as the salvation of God is, His wrath will be no different.
    What is the purpose of putting some people ~ i.e. those parts of humanity who think the things you believe are not credible ~ "under threat"? What is the hoped-for outcome from putting the non-Christian part of 'the whole of humanity' "under threat"?
  13. Standard member KellyJay
    Walk your Faith
    20 Jul '18 08:30
    Originally posted by @fmf
    It's a warning of terror to come if one doesn't comply with something but "it's not meant to be a credible threat"?? You sometimes sound like you're kind of trying to take the piss out of both of us with the things you say. Perhaps it's your slapdash writing/thinking? How on earth can "a warning of terror to come" be "not meant to be a threat"?
    It is a warning of something here not so much to come, we stand under God's wrath due
    to our unrepentant hearts now, we stand condemned already. Our wicked nature isn't
    something we can change on our own, God has to be in our lives for that to happen. If
    He isn't nothing about us changes, as we are held by our iniquities the very cores of our
    sin. If we are not restored to Him, we are apart from Him, and since He holds it all
    together by the power of His word we would be against Him, because He is a Holy God
    and our sins have separated us. Thank God for Jesus Christ who when He died for us
    and rose again destroyed the separation, but we have to come to Jesus Christ and put
    our faith in Him, making Him our Lord and Savior, having Him give us hearts of flesh
    instead of the hearts of stone we now have without Him. Jesus send the Holy Spirit to
    help us, without the Holy Spirit we do not belong to God.

    Proverbs 5:22
    The iniquities of the wicked ensnare him, and he is held fast in the cords of his sin.
  14. Standard member KellyJay
    Walk your Faith
    20 Jul '18 08:31
    Originally posted by @fmf
    What is the purpose of putting some people ~ i.e. those parts of humanity who think the things you believe are not credible ~ "under threat"? What is the hoped-for outcome from putting the non-Christian part of 'the whole of humanity' "under threat"?
    I quoted the scriptures at the beginning of the OP, look at those.
  15. 20 Jul '18 08:31 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @kellyjay
    It isn't a threat to non-believers, scripture teaches the whole of humanity is under threat,
    as great as the salvation of God is, His wrath will be no different. When God pours out His
    wrath there will be no mercy mixed into it, no lightening the load due to our abilities to
    take the stress, it is going to be poured out and the suffering will be done ri ...[text shortened]... 4:18
    And “If the righteous is scarcely saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”
    Do you regard the scriptures in your OP as being literal? I’m having to assume you do as you are behaving like a child again.

    So, tell me is this from your OP literal?
    Mathew 18:8
    “And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away.”

    Of course it isn’t. It’s all metaphors.