Originally posted by jaywillI agree that His disciples will be set free from the enslaving power of sin. But they must be born again to receive the divine nature.
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Jesus did not teach that it was impossible for "fallen man" to stop committing sin. In fact, He taught that His TRUE DISCIPLES will be set free from the slavery of committing sin.
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I agree that His disciples will be set free from the enslaving power of sin. But they mus and all His victory to you for daily living.
It is marvelous![/b]
Seemed like it was your position that it is impossible for "fallen man" to stop from committing sin. Up until you, it has been the position of all Paulians that I've come across. Perhaps you can help them see the light.
John 10:27-28
“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
Those who continue to sin do not follow Jesus. They are not TRUE DISCIPLES. Jesus does not know them ("' Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'" ). They will not be given eternal life.
Jesus never taught that all that was required was that one "profess belief". Rather He taught that one must follow Him, i.e., be a TRUE DISCIPLE.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne================================
[b]I agree that His disciples will be set free from the enslaving power of sin. But they must be born again to receive the divine nature.
Seemed like it was your position that it is impossible for "fallen man" to stop from committing sin. Up until you, it has been the position of all Paulians that I've come across. Perhaps you can help them see the "profess belief". Rather He taught that one must follow Him, i.e., be a TRUE DISCIPLE.[/b]
Seemed like it was your position that it is impossible for "fallen man" to stop from committing sin. Up until you, it has been the position of all Paulians that I've come across. Perhaps you can help them see the light.
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However you wish to express it, Jesus taught that we must be born again. Not optional, must.
He spoke that to a very pious man who was well respected in the religious community - Nicodemus. He jumped right to the point.
"Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born anew." (John 3:7)
Born anew here should not be understood as receiving some kind of admission ticket which reads ' "Born Again - Admit One".
Birth is for growth. Birth is for maturity. Maturity takes time. Maturation is a process. One must grow into the kingdom of God. The birth is the beginning.
Granted, some evangelicals have given the impression that "born again" is the end. Some experience and careful reading of New Testament can easily remedy this misunderstanding.
Jesus said you MUST be born anew. You must receive the divine life with its divine nature. As Peter reminds the disciples that they have become partakers of the divine nature:
"Through which He has granted to us precious and exceedingly great promises that through these you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption which is in the world through lust." (2 Peter 1:4)
Born again - "partakers of the divine nature" - precious promises. Through the divine nature we can escape the corruption that is in the world.
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John 10:27-28
“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
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That has been my experience. The enemy tried to snatch me out of His hand many times.
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Those who continue to sin do not follow Jesus. They are not TRUE DISCIPLES.
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Proverbs 24:16 is very good. It says "For a righteous man falls seven times and rises up again. ..."
A true disciple is not one who never fails. A true disciples may fall seven times but gets up and walks again.
Any concept of a "true disciple" of Jesus never having any failures is the worst possible misunderstanding of the Gospel.
Along with falling and rising up again you have another proverb about the righteous growing in greater and greater light:
Proverbs 4:18 - "But the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn, which shines brighter and brighter until the full day."
Stumbling to get up and walk again AND growing in light like the dawning of the sun discribe the righteous.
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Jesus does not know them ("' Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'" ). They will not be given eternal life.
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Arminians and holiness Pentacostals believe once saved a Christian can lose his salvation. They use verses like this.
However, Jesus can say depart, worker of lawlessness, and not mean depart for eternity.
The unforgiving servant of Matthew 18 surely had to depart and learn a lesson to forgive his fellow servant. He was turned over to the tormentors "UNTIL he would repay all that was owed." (Matt. 19:34)
In a real sense he departed from the Lord until his discipline was completed. So for Jesus to say "Depart from Me ..." does not always mean depart for eternity.
The oweing of the unforgiving servant is not an oweing in relation to his eternal redemption. No man can pay back to God what God has done in Christ to eternally redeem him.
The oweing is an oweing in relation to the age of grace. We Christians have been forgiven so much by God. It is right that we remember that in love and forgive others when we are offended.
And the other teachings about Christ dealing with sloppy or failing servants involves them being cast into "outer darkness". You may assume "outer darkness" is eternal punishment. But the word of God did not use the same phrase.
When the Lord reigns on the earth for 1,000 years there must be some realm outside of His glorious realm which is an "outer darkness" where some of His disciplined servants will suffer some kind of temporary chastizement.
If one does not believe in a dispensational punishment, I do not believe it is too serious. What is more serious is that one professing to be a follower of Christ cannot bring himself to confess His resurrection.
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Jesus never taught that all that was required was that one "profess belief". Rather He taught that one must follow Him, i.e., be a TRUE DISCIPLE.
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To believe that Jesus is your Lord and has been raised from the dead will secure for you eternal life.
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone who believes into Him would not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:16)
In the course of the church age, and the millennial kingdom, this does NOT preclude that God cannot do things to perfect a saved person's maturity in the divine life.
Originally posted by jaywillPut it together.
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Seemed like it was your position that it is impossible for "fallen man" to stop from committing sin. Up until you, it has been the position of all Paulians that I've come across. Perhaps you can help them see the light.
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However you wish to express it, Jesus taught th ...[text shortened]... to perfect a saved person's maturity in the divine life.[/b]
In Matthew 7:23 Jesus says He DOES NOT KNOW those who "work iniquity", i.e., continue to commit sin. In John 10:27-28 Jesus says He gives eternal life to those He KNOWS. If Jesus does not KNOW those who continue to commit sin, He cannot give them eternal life.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne==============================
Put it together.
In Matthew 7:23 Jesus says He DOES NOT KNOW those who "work iniquity", i.e., continue to commit sin. In John 10:27-28 Jesus says He gives eternal life to those He KNOWS. If Jesus does not KNOW those who continue to commit sin, He cannot give them eternal life.
In Matthew 7:23 Jesus says He DOES NOT KNOW those who "work iniquity", i.e., continue to commit sin. In John 10:27-28 Jesus says He gives eternal life to those He KNOWS. If Jesus does not KNOW those who continue to commit sin, He cannot give them eternal life.
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He knew them as Savior. They call Him "Lord" but did not the things of His being their Lord.
So as "Lord" He says He did not know them.
Concerning the unforgiving servant who He disciplined for a temporary time, He could well utter the same thing.
Peter denied Jesus three times. Did Peter perish forever ?
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneAs I figured: whatever matches your ill-conceived self-righteous (for whatever else could you call it) religion/distortion you accept, and whatever contradicts the same--- even if the words come from the very Lord you falsely claim to be serving--- you reject.
Referring to the OT does not imply that Jesus held ALL of the OT as "important" or as truth.
Your wild speculations do not trump the explicit teachings of Jesus:
"You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is Perfect." Matt 5:48.
That's a hell of a system you have going for you. Not only do you enter it blind, the system literally guarantees blindness throughout. It's like a perpetual motion machine. Good luck with that.
Matthew and John have different flavors.
The high demand of Matthew can only be met by the supply of Christ Himself a life in John. The two books complement one another.
"You shall be perfect even as you heavenly Father is perfect" of Matthew calls for the heavenly Father's life entering into the believers in John.
Repentence in Matthew has a special meaning also. It is to repent for the kingdom. It is not so much repent so you will not be punished. Rather it is a repentence for not being absolute for God's government, for God's kingdom
To be saved from punishment meets man's need. But God has His need. God needs a realm in which He can carry out His administration. God needs a government. Repentence in Matthew is repentence for not being in God's government. It is to repent for being for anything other than God's administration.
This is a little different from repent so that you will not be damned. Of course man needs to not be damned. But God needs an administration and a realm to exercise His government. Repentence in Matthew has more of God's need in view.
John the Baptist first proclaimed repentence - " ... Repent, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near." (Matt. 3:2)
Jesus followed John starting His ministry saying the exact same thing. "From that time Jesus began to proclaim and to say, Repent, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near." (Matt. 4:17)
I think as sinners our usual thought is that we need to repent so that we will not suffer punishment. And that is true. But from the viewpoint of God we need to repent for not being in the government of God, not being under the administration of God. We need to repent for the kingdom.
Secondly, in Matthew this being for God's kingdom, God's administrating government is closely tied to eternal life. Therefore some verses make a strongest possible link between eternal life and being under God's administration.
This is Matthew's flavor and emphasis more than the other three Gospels. The discipline of Matthew requires the supply of Christ as life in John. The two Gospels compliment each other and should not be made to nullify each other.
Further insight into the book of Matthew.
In the book of Matthew there is the frequent mention of "the kingdom of the heavens". One will be lost or very confused unless one can grasp that this kingdom of the heavens is taught in three aspects.
The aspects have been given names. The names are not in Matthew. And the three aspects could be discribed with other phrases. These three have been helpful to many of us.
1.) There is the reality of the kingdom.
2.) There is the appearance of the kingdom.
3.) There is the manifestation of the kingdom.
I will go thorugh that again with a little more exlanation.
1.) The reality of the kingdom is positive.
2.) The appearance of the kingdom is negative.
3.) The manifestation of the kingdom is positive.
That is two positive aspects of the kingdom of the heavens and one negative aspect.
One more time with more clarity:
1.) The reality of the kingdom is for the church age. It is a discipline one must walk in in which her or his righteousness exceeds that hypocrisy of the scribes and Pharisees. In the church age the disciples are called to walk in the reality of the kingdom.
2.) The appearance of the kingdom is a facade. Apparently it is related to Christ. Apparently it is related to God. In actuality it is a facade a hyporcrisy. It is negative. And it runs concurrently with the reality of the kingdom.
3.) The manifestation of the kingdom is the reward for living in the reality of the kingdom. It occurs after the second coming.
To those who walk in the reality of the kingdom and avoid the appearance, the facade of the kingdom, there will be the reward of the manifestation of the kingdom.
Put another way: Today the disciples in the reality of the kingdom reign over their fallen natures. When Christ returns, as a reward for living in the reality of the kingdom, that reigning will be manifested as a reigning over the earth as co-kings with Christ.
1.) The so called sermon on the mount is all about the reality of the kingdom.
2.) The negative parables in Matthew 13 are about the appearance of the kingdom.
3.) The verses about being rewarded by Christ in His second coming concern the manifestation of the kingdom.
If you live in the reality of the kingdom, what is hidden to most men yet real will be manifested at the second coming.
In the mean time concurrent with disciples living in the reality of the kingdom, there is the facade of the appearance of the kingdom - a false appearance.
All the verses on the kingdom of the heavens in Matthew fit into one of these three catagories.
Remember, the reality is positive. The manifestation is positive. The appearance is negative. The appearance of the kingdom relates to fallen Christiandom, a world wide degraded religion apparently related to Christ.
The appearance of the kingdom in its facade will be terminated at the second coming. The reality of the kingdom will become the manifestation of the kingdom at the second coming. And those who have lived in the reality will be rewarded.
This reward of the manifestation of the kingdom is distinct from eternal redemption. Reward or discipline relate to whether one has participated in the reality of the kingdom or the hypocritical facade of the appearance of the kingdom.
Perhaps I will follow with specific examples of the three aspects of the kindom of the heavens in the book of Matthew.
Originally posted by BadwaterI don't object to calling the Sermon on the Mount Matthew's agenda. But I don't think we should limit his "agenda" to only three chapters, namely 5 through 7.
No, the Sermon on the Mount is in Matthew because it addresses the specifics of Matthew's agenda.
This might lead to a misunderstanding that chapter 13 is not just as much part of Matthew's "agenda", or chapters 16 - 25.
I would be cautious not to restrict it too much.
Chapters 5 through 7 have been called by one teacher The Constitution of the Kingdom.
I think that works well. This crucial section lays out the basic principles for kingdom living in the reality of the kingdom. It forms a kind of introductory constitution for the New Testament overcoming and victorious church life - the reality of the kingdom of the heavens.
Originally posted by jaywillHe knew them as Savior. They call Him "Lord" but did not the things of His being their Lord.
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In Matthew 7:23 Jesus says He DOES NOT KNOW those who "work iniquity", i.e., continue to commit sin. In John 10:27-28 Jesus says He gives eternal life to those He KNOWS. If Jesus does not KNOW those who continue to commit sin, He cannot give them eternal life.
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He knew them ...[text shortened]... ll utter the same thing.
Peter denied Jesus three times. Did Peter perish forever ?[/b]
So as "Lord" He says He did not know them.
Can you elaborate on this? Seems like Jesus either knows them or doesn't know them. Do you not realize that rather than believe what Jesus explicitly states, you instead make His words mean what you want them to mean?
In John 10:27-28 Jesus says He gives eternal life to those He KNOWS. To those who HEAR His voice and FOLLOW Him. They HEAR His commands and FOLLOW them. Not that they "profess belief", but HEAR and FOLLOW.
John 10:27-28
“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
Whether or not Peter perished would be for Jesus to judge according to His teachings.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHWhatever matches your ill-conceived self-righteous (for whatever else could you call it) religion/distortion you accept, and whatever contradicts the same--- even if the words come from the very Lord you falsely claim to be serving--- you reject.
As I figured: whatever matches your ill-conceived self-righteous (for whatever else could you call it) religion/distortion you accept, and whatever contradicts the same--- even if the words come from the very Lord you falsely claim to be serving--- you reject.
That's a hell of a system you have going for you. Not only do you enter it blind, the system ...[text shortened]... guarantees blindness throughout. It's like a perpetual motion machine. Good luck with that.
This is plainly false.
Rather it is true of you:
You deny what Jesus explicitly teaches and instead choose to embrace beliefs cobbled together from the wild speculation of others, so that you can delude yourself into believing that you don't need to follow Him. That it is sufficient to cry "Lord, Lord".
Why do you allow yourself such delusions?
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Originally posted by BadwaterThe agenda of Matthew has nothing to do with what jaywill is labeling "the kingdom".
No, the Sermon on the Mount is in Matthew because it addresses the specifics of Matthew's agenda.
The other Gospels state their intentions more or less at the beginning of their writings. Matthew, however, states his intention at the end:
Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. When they saw him, they worshipped him; but some doubted. And Jesus came and said to them, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.’
Matthew's agenda is that he's interested in his readers becoming disciples of Jesus. That's his thrust through the entire witness. The Sermon on the Mount is the specifics of what it takes to be a disciple.
The kingdom nonsense is exactly that.
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Originally posted by jaywillGooblee-gock. See above.
I don't object to calling the Sermon on the Mount Matthew's agenda. But I don't think we should limit his "agenda" to only three chapters, namely 5 through 7.
This might lead to a misunderstanding that chapter 13 is not just as much part of Matthew's "agenda", or chapters 16 - 25.
I would be cautious not to restrict it too much.
Chapters 5 throu ...[text shortened]... ament overcoming and victorious church life - the reality of the kingdom of the heavens.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneWhen you assume that you can persistently pepper another poster with questions, yet remain silent on questions put to you, do you think that cultivates an attitude of respect in others ?
[b]He knew them as Savior. They call Him "Lord" but did not the things of His being their Lord.
So as "Lord" He says He did not know them.
Can you elaborate on this? Seems like Jesus either knows them or doesn't know them. Do you not realize that rather than believe what Jesus explicitly states, you instead make His words mean what you want th ...[text shortened]...
Whether or not Peter perished would be for Jesus to judge according to His teachings.[/b]
When I ask you to state your position on the resurrection and you respond with silence while holding my feet to the fire with your questions, do you think that cultivates an atmosphere of cooperation ?
Now you may say that resurrection is not relevant. But below you speak of Jesus will be the Judge of Peter. If I then ask you whether Jesus will be alive to Judge Peter, I am use to you hedging with silence.
Now, concerning "He knew them as Savior and not as Lord" - it is not the best explanation. But names mean much to Jesus. When the Gentile woman addressed Him as "Son of David" He ignored her to teach her that she was not a Jew and could not presume to relate to Him that way. Though He did respond to her when she called Him Lord.
Names are significant. They call Him Lord but are lawless. Maybe that is what He means. He did not know them as Lord. But I would not protest strongly if this seems an inadaquate explanation.
But I am getting a little annoyed at you wanting to pepper me with question after question to justify my understanding when you insist to ignore my question about the resurrection of Christ.
You won't even acknowledge that Jesus taught and Himself believed that He would be raised from the dead.
That is important because it means that He saw His ministry as continuing after the cross.
It is also important because in most of the New Testament eternal life is God Himself. So His resurrection from the dead is a demonstration of the power of eternal life, obviously.