Now only remains a judgement for unbelief

Originally posted by jaywill
When you assume that you can persistently pepper another poster with questions, yet remain silent on questions put to [b]you, do you think that cultivates an attitude of respect in others ?

When I ask you to state your position on the resurrection and you respond with silence while holding my feet to the fire with your questions, do you think ...[text shortened]... surrection from the dead is a demonstration of the power of eternal life, obviously.[/b]

When you assume that you can persistently pepper another poster with questions, yet remain silent on questions put to you, do you think that cultivates an attitude of respect in others ?
----jaywill------------------------

I got to this piont with ToO over a year ago. What amazes me is how he can't see that he does this. He always plays with loaded dice and yet tries to convince himself that he somehow has a stranglehold on truth. How he can look himself in the mirror and actually think he is debating on a level playing field is beyond me.

You are right it leads to diminished respect and the co-operation breaks down because he won't apply the same rules and logic to himself that he expects from others. He puts forward a certain logic based on the words of Jesus and then one reflects back the same logic based on the words of Jesus (to counter what he says) and he loses interest.

He recently called me a "nutter" and is currently using this as an excuse to not listen to any of my points. However , in the past he has always maintained that the moral standing or status of an individual is not important , it's the words of Jesus that are important. This was in response to me asking him if he were righteous or sinless himself. This presumably means that whether I am a nutter or stalker or whatever should be irrelevant because it's the logic and content of my posts that are important - not WHO posts them. This was what he was asking me to consider over a year ago - but apparently (as usual) it applies to me but not to him.

He continues to personalise things as a way of avoiding content but in the past has implied strongly that the charactor of the poster himself is unimportant compared to the point being made.

It's very childish , but then of course it's not him that's being childish it's us of course.

Good luck though

Originally posted by knightmeister
When you assume that you can persistently pepper another poster with questions, yet remain silent on questions put to you, do you think that cultivates an attitude of respect in others ?
----jaywill------------------------

I got to this piont with ToO over a year ago. What amazes me is how he can't see that he does this. He always plays with loade n of course it's not him that's being childish it's us of course.

Good luck though

Well, I'll tell you. The subject matter is interesting and important.

It is too bad that one view point is presented by such a stealth debater. Many of these tactics just strike me as stealth argumentation - concealing beliefs behind the excuse of their irrelevancy.

If Jesus says of His resurrection - "Because I live you shall also live" then our living unto God and as God pleases is dependent upon His resurrection. How can you then dismiss the resurrection as irrelevant ?

Even to understand what Jesus INTENDED us to believe you have to at least acknowledge that HE BELIEVED in His resurrection. He incorporated it in His teaching.

But to dismiss both teaching and fact as irrelevant seems to me some kind of stealth argumentation.

Originally posted by jaywill
Well, I'll tell you. The subject matter is interesting and important.

It is too bad that one view point is presented by such a stealth debater. Many of these tactics just strike me as stealth argumentation - concealing beliefs behind the excuse of their irrelevancy.

If Jesus says of His resurrection - [b]"Because I live you shall also live" the ...[text shortened]... dismiss both teaching and fact as irrelevant seems to me some kind of stealth argumentation.[/b]

It's more than stealth it's just plain rigidity IMO. The problem is that ToOne's position is that he thinks Jesus catagorcally and explictly says one thing about sin and righteousness and ONE thing only.

If a person has a catagorical posiiton then logically this requires that there are no exceptions to the rule. If I say that there are catagorically no shoes in my cupboard and then someone finds one then I'm scuppered by one simple shoe. I can't make it fit. It doesn't logically add up. This is why I bring up Matt 6:9 with ToO because it's his shoe in the cupboard. It makes no sense for Jesus to teach his followers to pray "forgive us out trespasses" on a daily basis , if he really believed that one could not follow him if one had any sins that needed confessing.

He just ignores this and pretends it's not a problem. To me there's no stealth in that - just stick your fingers in your ears and sing la-la-la.

He's already masde his mind up about things and if the words of Jesus himself cannot sway him , what can?

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]==========================
Jaywill, read my post again. In fact reread my last few posts. Clearly I am not questioning if they will never perish. What I am questioning, as I'm sure you are quite aware, is YOUR ASSERTION that in John 10:27 when Jesus was speaking of those He would give eternal life, He was speaking of those He "knew as savoir", but d woman will never perish forever.

That is all the time I have this morning.

[/b]How do you continue to miss the main point of my posts?

The fact is that Jesus describes His sheep as those who HEAR and FOLLOW Him. Clearly He is LORD to those that He would give eternal life. Not "savior" but LORD.

John 10:27-28
“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Jesus does not know those who continue to sin. They do not follow Jesus. Jesus does not know them. They will not be given eternal life.

Matthew 7:23
"Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'"

To those that continue to commit sin, Jesus says, "I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity." They are not His sheep and as such are not given eternal life.

Originally posted by jaywill
Well, I'll tell you. The subject matter is interesting and important.

It is too bad that one view point is presented by such a stealth debater. Many of these tactics just strike me as stealth argumentation - concealing beliefs behind the excuse of their irrelevancy.

If Jesus says of His resurrection - [b]"Because I live you shall also live" the ...[text shortened]... dismiss both teaching and fact as irrelevant seems to me some kind of stealth argumentation.[/b]

But to dismiss both teaching and fact as irrelevant seems to me some kind of stealth argumentation.

I keep explaining to you that it is irrelevant to what Jesus taught is required for "eternal life" / "heaven" / "salvation". That does not mean that it is irrelevant to what Jesus taught en toto. How you fail to understand this is beyond me.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]But to dismiss both teaching and fact as irrelevant seems to me some kind of stealth argumentation.

I keep explaining to you that it is irrelevant to what Jesus taught is required for "eternal life" / "heaven" / "salvation". That does not mean that it is irrelevant to what Jesus taught en toto. How you fail to understand this is beyond me.[/b]

======================================
I keep explaining to you that it is irrelevant to what Jesus taught is required for "eternal life" / "heaven" / "salvation". That does not mean that it is irrelevant to what Jesus taught en toto. How you fail to understand this is beyond me.
=========================================

No. You fail to understand that Jesus did not EXPECT us to be able to live righteously apart from His resurrection.

It is relevant to living a Christian life 1,000 Percent.

And how you fail to understand this is not beyond me. It is called garden variety disbelief in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

You are simply an ethical thnking moralist attempting to hijack the New Testament for a doctrine of a dead and absent good teacher.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
How do you continue to miss the main point of my posts?

[quote]The fact is that Jesus describes His sheep as those who HEAR and FOLLOW Him. Clearly He is LORD to those that He would give eternal life. Not "savior" but LORD.

John 10:27-28
“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will , you who work iniquity." They are not His sheep and as such are not given eternal life.[/b]

==================================
To those that continue to commit sin, Jesus says, "I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity." They are not His sheep and as such are not given eternal life.
================================

There are a number of relationships between Christ's believers and Christ.

There is the sheep to the Shepherd.
There is the servant to the Master.
There is the virgins to the Bridegroom.

There are those trading with the Lord's money as bankers.
There are living vessels to the Indwelling One.
There are members of His Body.
There are branches in the true Vine.

There are brothers to the Firstborn Son.
There are soldiers in His army.

The profound and manifold relationship of Jesus to His redeemed people is expressed from not just one angle in the NT but many.

I understand your mixing the Shepherd and the Master teachings. And I can see some logic to you saying for Jesus to say He did not know the servant means that He never knew the sheep.

But your interpretation does not hold if you mean that the sheep who follow the Shepherd into the new covenant pasture can perish out of His hand.

And I have given you one strong example which you have not been able to refute. The unforgiving servant of Matthew 18 was dealt with by the Lord UNTIL he learned his lesson.

To refute this I think you must do one of the following:

1.) Convince me that the unforgving servant is a false Christian.
2.) Convince me that the unforgiving servant is a true Christian who will perish forever.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
How do you continue to miss the main point of my posts?

[quote]The fact is that Jesus describes His sheep as those who HEAR and FOLLOW Him. Clearly He is LORD to those that He would give eternal life. Not "savior" but LORD.

John 10:27-28
“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will , you who work iniquity." They are not His sheep and as such are not given eternal life.[/b]

======================================
To those that continue to commit sin, Jesus says, "I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity." They are not His sheep and as such are not given eternal life.
===========================================

Was this person a follower of Jesus who continued to commit sin or not?

"Then his master called him to [him] and said to him, Evil slave, all that debt I forgave you, because you begged me. Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave even as I had mercy on you? And his master became angry and delivered him to the torturers until he would repay all that was owed.

So also will My heavenly Father do to you if each of you does not forgive his brother from your hearts." (Matt. 18:32-35)

Was this "evil slave" a true Christian disciple or not ?

If he was not then why does the Lord in the parable say the master had forgiven him all that great debt?

If he was not a disciple then why is he serving the master ?

If the unforgving servant is also one of the Shepherd's sheep, why doesn't the master turn him over to the torturers for eternity ? According to your teaching if the sheep continue to sin they perish forever.

And when Jesus says "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy" (Matt. 5:7) is He teaching that His redeeming death is not necessary? Is He teaching that anyone who is merciful to those who offend him will receive eternal life ?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
How do you continue to miss the main point of my posts?

[quote]The fact is that Jesus describes His sheep as those who HEAR and FOLLOW Him. Clearly He is LORD to those that He would give eternal life. Not "savior" but LORD.

John 10:27-28
“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will , you who work iniquity." They are not His sheep and as such are not given eternal life.[/b]

The fact is that Jesus describes His sheep as those who HEAR and FOLLOW Him. Clearly He is LORD to those that He would give eternal life. Not "savior" but LORD.
----ToOne--------------

And how does Jesus teach his sheep to pray to God? Let's think about the one and only instruction Jesus gave on the prayer life of those who would follow him.

Hmmmm.... ah yes Matt 6:9!!!

Forgive us our trespasses(sins)....? Oh dear!

Why would followers of Jesus need to ask for forgiveness from God???

If they were done with sin then this should not be neccesary at all

Maybe , Jesus meant for his true followers to pray differently?
Nope , doesn't fit - only one Lord's prayer.

What if the Lord's Prayer was only supposed to be a one off?
Bit of a reach though because it was presented as a daily exercise ("give us this day our daily bread" ) - also Jesus prayed daily and had an active on-going relationship with God.

Aha ! The answer has come at last!!! Call KM a nutter , stick my fingers in my ears and sing la lal la and pretend Jesus never said those words!

That'll work!!!! Let's hope no-one notices eh ToOne. Never mind , we won't notice , we are all children remember.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
How do you continue to miss the main point of my posts?

[quote]The fact is that Jesus describes His sheep as those who HEAR and FOLLOW Him. Clearly He is LORD to those that He would give eternal life. Not "savior" but LORD.

John 10:27-28
“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will ...[text shortened]... , you who work iniquity." They are not His sheep and as such are not given eternal life.[/b]

To those that continue to commit sin, Jesus says, "I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity." They are not His sheep and as such are not given eternal life.
--------ToOne-----------------------

You are just grafting on your own ideas on to what he said and then pretending to yourself that this is exactly and catagorically true.

Jesus did not say that his words were explicitly for those who commit sin. He said "there will be those (some) on that day who will say to me.....Lord Lord , did we not perform many miracles in your name etc? "

IE- they thought that they could earn heaven by doing spectacular things almost turning Jesus into a magic show or something. He also refers to iniquity , which is actually wickedness or deviousness and in the Jewish faith at the time "iniquity" had it's own catagory in the many catagories of sin.

The fact is that your interpretation may or may not be correct and is one of a set of different ways that this passage can be seen. Matt 6:9 suggests to me that you may well be mistaken in your view on this , but like all fundies you put it out there as if it was fact.

Maybe that's why jaywill misses the point - because it's probably not correct.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]======================================
I keep explaining to you that it is irrelevant to what Jesus taught is required for "eternal life" / "heaven" / "salvation". That does not mean that it is irrelevant to what Jesus taught en toto. How you fail to understand this is beyond me.
=========================================

No. You fail ...[text shortened]... t attempting to hijack the New Testament for a doctrine of a dead and absent good teacher.[/b]

Jaywill, you made the following assertion:

"But to dismiss both teaching and fact as irrelevant seems to me some kind of stealth argumentation."

I gave the following response:
"I keep explaining to you that it is irrelevant to what Jesus taught is required for "eternal life" / "heaven" / "salvation". That does not mean that it is irrelevant to what Jesus taught en toto. How you fail to understand this is beyond me."

Your assertion is false as it IS irrelevant as I explained above. Your latest post is also not relevant to what Jesus taught is required for "eternal life" / "heaven" / "salvation". You are not being rational and are just avoiding the issue.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]======================================
To those that continue to commit sin, Jesus says, "I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity." They are not His sheep and as such are not given eternal life.
===========================================

Was this person a follower of Jesus who continued to commit sin or not?

"The aching that anyone who is merciful to those who offend him will receive eternal life ?

[/b]Jaywill, why do choose to deny the explicit words of Jesus? Your ideas are based on highly speculative ideas based on a parable. Do you understand the passage is a parable? Do you understand what a parable is? It isn't meant to be taken literally, but as an illustration to give His followers something from this world that they have more familiarity to give them some insight.

From wiki:

A parable is a brief, succinct story, in prose or verse, that illustrates a moral or religious lesson. It differs from a fable in that fables use animals, plants, inanimate objects, and forces of nature as characters, while parables generally feature human characters. It is a type of analogy.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]======================================
To those that continue to commit sin, Jesus says, "I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity." They are not His sheep and as such are not given eternal life.
===========================================

Was this person a follower of Jesus who continued to commit sin or not?

"The aching that anyone who is merciful to those who offend him will receive eternal life ?

[/b]This parable is an illustration of the hypocrisy of expecting mercy and not being willing to give it. Do you not understand this?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Jaywill, you made the following assertion:

"But to dismiss both teaching and fact as irrelevant seems to me some kind of stealth argumentation."

I gave the following response:
"I keep explaining to you that it is irrelevant to what Jesus taught is required for "eternal life" / "heaven" / "salvation". That does not mean that it is irrelevant to what ven" / "salvation". You are not being rational and are just avoiding the issue.

=================================
"I keep explaining to you that it is irrelevant to what Jesus taught is required for "eternal life"
=======================================

Utter nonsense. Christ Himself is the most important requirement for salvation.

"But He [Christ the High Priest] because He abides forever, has His priesthood unalterable.

Hence also He is able to save to the uttermost those who come forward to God through Him, since He lives always to intercede for them." (Hebrew 7:24,25)

Christ is able to save us to the uttermost because He ever lives. Which perpetual life and priesthood would have been cut off without His resurrection from the dead.

I played your little game for a good long time, only mostly using the four Gospel sentences and (once Acts). From now on I stand on the entire 29 New Testament books as the teaching of Jesus Christ.

If you accept it you accept it.
If you don't accept it you just don't accept it.

That includes Paul's epistles.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]=================================
"I keep explaining to you that it is irrelevant to what Jesus taught is required for "eternal life"
=======================================

Utter nonsense. Christ Himself is the most important requirement for salvation.

"But He [Christ the High Priest] because He abides forever, has His pri
If you don't accept it you just don't accept it.

That includes Paul's epistles.

[/b]It's easy to understand why so many choose to follow the teachings of Paul rather than the teachings of Jesus. With Paul, it's so easy to follow. If you believe Paul, all one need do is cry, "Lord, Lord, I believe". They are so pleased with this idea that they are blind to this and other teachings of Jesus:

Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day,'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'