Old Testament Trinity Challenge

Originally posted by divegeester

No, they didn't. Show me one scripture where the disciples baptised in the "name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit". Just one will do.
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Acts 2:38

"And Peter said to them, Repent and each one of you be baptized upon the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

For to you is the promise and to your children, and to all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God calls to Himself."

They were therefore baptized into the Person - into the name of the Son Jesus Christ (v.38), and in the name of the Holy Spirit [b](v.38) and into the name of the Father - God (v.39).

This was the act of obedience in faith of the apostles to fulfill the command of Jesus to baptized into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. (Matt. 28:19) .

You're upset that Peter didn't say what you think he should have said. Very superficial of you.


The disciples baptised into the name of "Jesus Christ" each and every time.
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Acts 2:38 uses the word upon concerning the name of Jesus.

"Repent and each one of you be baptized UPON the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins" (Acts 2:38).

Acts 22:16 simply records Paul saying the believers should be baptized.

, "Rise up and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on His name" (Acts 22:16).

We may count this as the people being baptized into the name - into the reality of the living Person of the Father-Son-Holy Spirit.

Then we have also Philip baptizing the Ethiopian eunuch.

"And Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from the Scripture he announced Jesus as the gospel to him.

And as they were going along the road, they came upon some water, and the eunuch said, Look, water, What prevents me from being baptized?

And Philip said, If you believe from all your heart, you will be saved. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

And he ordered the chariot to stand still, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him.

And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away; and the eunuch did not see him anymore, for he went on his way rejoicing." (Acts 8:35-39)

Here we do not see what Philip verbally pronounced at the moment of them going down into the water. But the non-superficial understanding certainly would see this also as the eunuch being baptized into the name or into the living Person of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

You are too hung up on the mechanics of ritual.

God the Father is there - "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of GOD. "

God the Son is there - "I believe that Jesus Christ is the SON ..." .

What about God the Holy Spirit ? Well the catching away of the evangelist by the Holy Spirit certainly seems to be the seal of the approval of the Holy Spirit that the job of baptism was completed and completed properly.

So we may certainly understand the eunuch's experience to also being baptized into the Name, ie. into the living Person of the Triune God - the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

And I have no doubt that the eunuch went away rejoicing in the Holy Spirit.

I want to come back to the Angel of Jehovah.

Exodus 23:23 says, “Mine Angel shall go before thee.” In Exodus 14:19 the Bible says that the Angel of Jehovah was leading the people:

“And the Angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them.” (Exodus 14:19)

The Angel refers to Christ, and the cloud signifies the Spirit. We have God the Father as usual behind the scene, and God the Son and God the Spirit here. In Exodus 14, the Triune God was present.

The Son was the protecting Angel. The the Spirit as the cloud was darkness to the Egyptians and light to the children of Israel.
Behind the Angel and the cloud, the Son and the Spirit, was the God the Father.

We see then in Exodus 14 an Old Testament revelation of the Trinity. Triune God was applying Himself to the people in their situation. Therefore, we may define the Trinity as God’s application of Himself to His people.

In their distress in Exodus 14 the Divine Trinity was applied to His chosen people. Without God being Triune He could not have applied Himself to His chosen people.

I want to emphasize that the Trinity denotes both the dispensation of the Triune God and the application of the Triune God. Many Christians may find these definitions something not often heard. I admit that this way of speaking of the Trinity is somewhat new. But according to the Word of God, it is a fact that apart from the Trinity God has no way to apply Himself to His people.

When God said,

“Behold, I send an Angel before thee,”

God was doing more than just giving only laws and ordinances to srael. God was applying Himself to the children of Israel. And it is revealed that He was three-one in doing this applying.

Originally posted by Rajk999
You are such a shallow biased piece of garbage. This constant @$$licking of some posters by telling them you are glad they are here is the same as telling the others you are not glad they are here. You just cant discuss without sticking your tongue where it does not belong?

Thank you.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Really? Why don't you just answer the question?
I take offense as to what you think "appears" that I am misinformed.
You are taking the stance that you are right and anyone who disagrees is wrong?
I can tell you that the scriptural evidence for one God and one Lord is overwhelming.
Your belief in a trinity revolves around a handful of verses.
Perhaps ...[text shortened]... ptying yourself of human tradition and humbling your self in prayer and really study the scriptures.

"Trinity – The Bible reveals that there exists only one Triune God, Creator of all things, eternally existing in three eternal persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, co-equal, co-infinite, and co-eternal in power and glory, and identical in nature, having the same attributes and perfections. While God is one in Essence, He expresses Himself as three distinct, though co-equal, personalities: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. The doctrine of the Trinity is clearly a monotheistic revelation from Scripture (Deuteronomy 6:4; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Matthew 3:16-17; Luke 3:21-22; Genesis 1:1-2; Genesis 6:3; Psalm 51:11; Isaiah 40:13; Isaiah 48:16; Haggai 2:4-5; John 1:1-2; John 14:7; John 16:8-13; John 17:5,24; Ephesians 1:11; Ephesians 3:11; Hebrews 10:7; 1 Timothy 2:5; 1 Corinthians 2:10; Philippians 2:6; Micah 5:2)." http://chafer-cstn.org/BaseT/Glossary.htm

checkbaiter, this one paragraph (with its numerous scripture references) is as accurate and definitive as any I've found online so far. My apology for the offense you've taken. None of us is "right" unless our understanding of this difficult doctrine is in full alignment with the absolute truth revealed in the Word of God. Yes, humility (seeing ourselves as God sees us) and acceptance of the authority (of our own pastor/teacher) are essential; otherwise there is no teachability; without teachability, we remain ignorant rather than informed.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby (Page 3)
"If you're unable to accept the words of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself it's highly doubtful that you'll ever accept His words quoted to you by anyone on this online spirituality forum. Perhaps you should consider making an appointment with your own pastor/teacher to privately discuss this gnawing questi ...[text shortened]... making an appointment with your own pastor/teacher to privately discuss this gnawing question."

Oh I see, you are sulking about my critising of your other previous post and don't want to talk about this current topic. That's fine, my point has been made about baptising in Jesus name anyway and your inability to find scripture to support your postion is noted.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, are three distinct persons who are co-equal, co-infinite and co-eternal; all three possess the same divine nature and eternal attributes. God is one in essence but in three persons."

There is so much error in this post I don't even know where to begin.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Isaiah 9:6


Isaiah 9:6
“And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace….” (NIV)

1. Trinitarians should admit that this verse is translated improperly just from the fact that Jesus is never called the “Everlasting Father” anywhere else in Scripture. Indeed, Trinitarians correctly deny that Jesus is the “ ...[text shortened]... ead the entire article or watch the video...
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/videos/isaiah-9-6

Witness Lee deals with various twistings of Isaiah 9:6 used to argue against the Son being called Eternal Father.

http://www.contendingforthefaith.org/responses/booklets/heresy.html

VARIOUS TWISTINGS OF ISAIAH 9:6

The first twisting is exemplified by a brother who said, “The Son is called the Father, but He is not the Father.” I said, “Brother, isn’t it ridiculous to say this? Can we say that Mr. Smith is called Mr. Smith, but that he is not really Mr. Smith? Can we say that the Bible is called the Bible, but that it is not the Bible? The same is true with the matter of the Son’s being called the everlasting Father. How can we say that He is called the everlasting Father but is not the everlasting Father? What kind of logic is this?”

A second twisting claims that because, according to the Hebrew, “the everlasting Father” should be rendered “the Father of eternity,” the Son cannot be the Father. I agree that “the Father of eternity” is a better translation than “the everlasting Father.” But who is this Father of eternity? Is He not the Father among the Three of the Godhead? Apart from the Father in the Godhead is there another divine Father who is called “the Father of eternity”? Certainly not! Nevertheless, some twist Isaiah 9:6 to say that the Father of eternity is not the Father in the Godhead. They say that He is another Father, the Father of eternity, which, according to them, means the origin, the source, of the ages. This twisting implies that they believe in two divine Fathers—the Father in the Godhead and the Father of eternity. This is really heretical. According to the Bible, the Father of eternity is the Father in the Godhead. I appeal to you to be honest, fair, and sincere. Do you believe that besides the Father in the Godhead there is another Father who is the Father of eternity?

A third twisting claims that, according to the Hebrew, the everlasting Father is the Father of creation. To this, I would ask, “Who is this Father of creation?” If they answer that He is Jesus, I would reply, “Do you believe that besides the Father in the Godhead, Jesus is another Father, the Father of creation?” They would have to admit that they believe this. If they do, then they have two divine Fathers. While they condemn us for being heretical, they themselves are exposed as being heretical.

According to the fourth way of twisting, the “Father” in this verse is the Father of Israel. The ones who twist the verse in this way use Isaiah 63:16 and 64:8 as their basis. They say that the everlasting Father in Isaiah 9:6 is the Father of Israel. But I would ask, “Who is this Father, the Father of Israel?” Surely, it must be the Father in the Godhead. If anyone says that this Father, the Father of Israel, is not the Father in the Godhead, he implies that there are two divine Fathers. This is certainly heretical.

A fifth twisting is based upon a note in an edition of the Septuagint. (The Septuagint is an ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament.) This note renders “the Father of the age to come” for “the everlasting Father.” Some say that, based on this, the everlasting Father in Isaiah 9:6 is not the Father in the Godhead, but the Father of the coming age. They claim that He is the Father who brings in the new age, just as Edison was the father who brought in the age of electrical science. But the Hebrew word for “everlasting” in this verse means eternity, eternal, everlasting, evermore, perpetually, old, world without end (see Strong’s Concordance). However they twist this verse, they cannot twist away the title, “the Father.”

Actually, what is revealed in Isaiah 9:6 is very personal and subjective to us. It does not say, “A child is born, a son is given.” It says, “Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given.” The phrase “unto us,” especially by its repetition, indicates a strong emphasis, showing that whatever is revealed in this verse is “unto us” in a very personal, subjective, and experiential way. Not only is the “child,” the “son,” for our personal experience, but also all that His five names unfold is for our personal experience. Christ as the wonderful One, the Counselor, the mighty God, and the Prince of Peace is all for our personal experience. In this context, “the everlasting Father” must also be for our personal experience. He is our wonderful One, our Counselor, our mighty God, our Prince of Peace, and also our everlasting Father. Since the wonderful One, the Counselor, the mighty God, and the Prince of Peace are ours, the everlasting Father must also be ours. To interpret “the everlasting Father,” or “the Father of eternity,” as the “Father of the coming age” does not fit the context, but rather makes it objective and impersonal, thus rendering this aspect of the Lord meaningless as far as the context of the entire verse is concerned.

Furthermore, Isaiah 63:16 says, “Thou, O Lord, art our Father; our Redeemer from eternity is thy name” (Heb.). And Isaiah 64:8 says, “O Lord, thou art our Father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we are the work of thy hand.” The prophet Isaiah used these two verses as a further development of what he prophesied concerning Christ as the Father of eternity in Isaiah 9:6. In 64:8 Isaiah tells us that the Father of eternity in 9:6 is our Creator, and in 63:16 he tells us that the Father of eternity is our Redeemer. In the whole Bible, Christ is revealed as our Creator and especially as our Redeemer (John 1:3; Heb. 1:10; Rom. 3:24; Titus 2:14). The Father of eternity being both our Creator and our Redeemer not only confirms but also strengthens the understanding that the Redeemer, Christ, is the Father of eternity, the holy Father in the Godhead. Hence, to say that the everlasting Father, or the Father of eternity, in Isaiah 9:6 is some kind of Father, other than the Father in the Godhead, is not according to the context of the whole book of Isaiah.

Originally posted by JS357
The question may not be answerable on historic records but be resolved to some degree by looking at the current Baptismal rite as at:

http://www.catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/textcontents/index/4/subindex/67/textindex/7

Partial quote:

Then, turning to the font, he says the following blessing (outside the Easter season).

A. Father, you gi ...[text shortened]...
All: Amen.
end quote

Edit: But all this shows is that Trinitarianism is Catholic orthodoxy.

Thank you for this; I don't have much regard for catholic cannon and don't consider the churches doctrines or teachings to be accurate.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
checkbaiter, sadly it would appear that you've been misinformed. Why? Because you lack the doctrinal frame of reference to grasp the significance of The Trinity. Suggest that you too consult privately with your own pastor/teacher.

Instead of condecendenly telling people to consult thier pastor, why don't you address the points they are making.

Originally posted by sonship
Witness Lee deals with various twistings of [b]Isaiah 9:6 used to argue against the Son being called Eternal Father.

http://www.contendingforthefaith.org/responses/booklets/heresy.html

VARIOUS TWISTINGS OF ISAIAH 9:6

The first twisting is exemplified by a brother who said, “The Son is called the Father, but He is not the Fat ...[text shortened]... the Father in the Godhead, is not according to the context of the whole book of Isaiah.

[/b]

When the Bible doesn't support your position, you default to Witness Lee as a higher authority.

Originally posted by divegeester
Oh I see, you are sulking about my critising of your other previous post and don't want to talk about this current topic. That's fine, my point has been made about baptising in Jesus name anyway and your inability to find scripture to support your postion is noted.

Originally posted by divegeester
"Oh I see, you are sulking about my critising of your other previous post and don't want to talk about this current topic. That's fine, my point has been made about baptising in Jesus name anyway and your inability to find scripture to support your postion is noted."

"Trinity – The Bible reveals that there exists only one Triune God, Creator of all things, eternally existing in three eternal persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, co-equal, co-infinite, and co-eternal in power and glory, and identical in nature, having the same attributes and perfections. While God is one in Essence, He expresses Himself as three distinct, though co-equal, personalities: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. The doctrine of the Trinity is clearly a monotheistic revelation from Scripture (Deuteronomy 6:4; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Matthew 3:16-17; Luke 3:21-22; Genesis 1:1-2; Genesis 6:3; Psalm 51:11; Isaiah 40:13; Isaiah 48:16; Haggai 2:4-5; John 1:1-2; John 14:7; John 16:8-13; John 17:5,24; Ephesians 1:11; Ephesians 3:11; Hebrews 10:7; 1 Timothy 2:5; 1 Corinthians 2:10; Philippians 2:6; Micah 5:2)." http://chafer-cstn.org/BaseT/Glossary.htm"
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Twenty one passages of scripture have been provided. Only two options: Accept their authority or reject it.

Originally posted by divegeester
There is so much error in this post I don't even know where to begin.

Begin wherever you like in correcting any and all errors for the benefit of us all..

Originally posted by divegeester
Instead of condecendenly telling people to consult thier pastor, why don't you address the points they are making.

The Holy Spirit gives spiritual gifts to all believers in Christ at the moment of salvation which are discovered as a believer is accurately taught God's Word and grows in grace to maturity. One of the communication gifts "pastor (authority) / teacher (function) is provided to enable believers to learn the entire realm of bible doctrine which is the Mind of Christ.

You have consistently rejected the validity of scripture I've quoted. Please present your questions to your own pastor/teacher rather than waste any more of your time and mine with this exercise in futility. Thank you..

Originally posted by sonship
[b] No, they didn't. Show me one scripture where the disciples baptised in the "name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit". Just one will do.
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Acts 2:38

[quote] "And Peter said to them, Repent and each one of you be baptized upon the n ...[text shortened]... the Holy Spirit.

And I have no doubt that the eunuch went away rejoicing in the Holy Spirit.

They did not baptise in the "name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit". They baptised in the name of Jesus Christ. All this bluster and witness Lee stuff from you, won't change that.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Begin wherever you like in correcting any and all errors for the benefit of us all..

I've already pointed out one error about the baptism in Jesus name not the titles of father, son and holy spirit - and you condescendingly told me to go and talk to another pastor.