Old Testament Trinity Challenge

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
The Holy Spirit gives spiritual gifts to all believers in Christ at the moment of salvation which are discovered as a believer is accurately taught God's Word and grows in grace to maturity. One of the communication gifts "pastor (authority) / teacher (function) is provided to enable believers to learn the entire realm of bible doctrine which is the Min ...[text shortened]... her rather than waste any more of your time and mine with this exercise in futility. Thank you..

You are not a pastor Grampy Bobby and I do not consider you an authoritative voice on scripture as your interpretations are, in my opinion, full of errors. I've pointed one of these out for the purpose of debate and you simply refuse to discuss. This is a habit many Christians use in here to avoid discussing topics they are either uncomfortable with, unable to defend or because they simply don't like the individual poster. It's quite a hollow way to behave.

Originally posted by divegeester
You are not a pastor Grampy Bobby and I do not consider you an authoritative voice on scripture as your interpretations are, in my opinion, full of errors. I've pointed one of these out for the purpose of debate and you simply refuse to discuss. This is a habit many Christians use in here to avoid discussing topics they are either uncomfortable with, unab ...[text shortened]... o defend or because they simply don't like the individual poster. It's quite a hollow way to behave.

Yes, precisely why I've encouraged you to seek answers to your several doctrinal questions from your own pastor/teacher rather than persit in engaging others here with an exercise in futility. Once you've received clarifications from your pastor/teacher please post them in this public spirituality forum. Until then I'll respond to your cue by delaying my replies to your posts which are not in alignment with absolute truths revealed in the Word of God. Objective discussion is one thing; endless emotionally driven harangues quite another.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Yes, precisely why I've encouraged you to seek answers to your several doctrinal questions from your own pastor/teacher rather than persit in engaging others here with an exercise in futility. Once you've received clarifications from your pastor/teacher please post them in this public spirituality forum. Until then I'll respond to your cue by delaying m ...[text shortened]... d of God. Objective discussion is one thing; endless emotionally driven harangues quite another.

What I have posted here, the links I have posted here, are from my Pastor.
Again, can you tell me the definition of "co-equal"?
I ask this because you claim Jesus, God and the holy spirit are co-equal. Yet the bible says, in Jesus words...'the Father is greater than I"

John 14:28
If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.
NKJV

Corinthians also says that the Son will be subject to his Father.

1 Cor 15:28
Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
NKJV

One God and one Lord shown in the Old Testament. Joseph was a "type of Christ"

Gen 41:40-41
You shall be over my house, and all my people shall be ruled according to your word; only in regard to the throne will I be greater than you." 41 And Pharaoh said to Joseph, "See, I have set you over all the land of Egypt."
NKJV

Originally posted by divegeester
When the Bible doesn't support your position, you default to Witness Lee as a higher authority.

No, when the Bible does support a certain position I may add quotes from Witness Lee. As you will soon see I am not restricted to Lee.

No one has yet refuted that in Zechariah 2:8-11 Jehovah of hosts is both the Sender and the One Sent.

You see, in God dispensing Himself to man His triune being is revealed. This is true in both testaments but more clearly taught in the New Testament.

Neither you nor Robbie Carrobie the JW, nor chechbaiter nor anyone else has demonstrated any error in what I wrote about Zechariah 2:8-11.

Your quotations about Isaiah 9:6, though suspect, were doing the same as I do. If refering to some teacher is good for you then why not for me?

And I think there you spoke more about substance than whining about process.

So let me quote some other brother then.

Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 155 - 220 ) This is from The Instructor, Book I,6 - a comment on Isaiah 9:6.

"The Spirit calls the Lord Himself a child ... who, then is this infant child? He according to whose image we are made little children. By the same prophet is declared His greatness: "Wonderful, Counselor, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace." O the great God! O the perfect Child! The Son in the Father, and Father in the Son ... For just as far as man is inferior to God in power, so much feebler is man's speech than Him: although he does not declare God, but only speaks about God and the Divine Word. For human speech is by nature feeble, and incapable of uttering God."

[My bolding]

Originally posted by checkbaiter
What I have posted here, the links I have posted here, are from my Pastor.
Again, can you tell me the definition of "co-equal"?
I ask this because you claim Jesus, God and the holy spirit are co-equal. Yet the bible says, in Jesus words...'the Father is greater than I"

John 14:28
If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to ...[text shortened]... ill also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
NKJV

Originally posted by checkbaiter
What I have posted here, the links I have posted here, are from my Pastor.
Again, can you tell me the definition of "co-equal"?"
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checkbaiter, the definition of "co-equal" with reference to the Trinity communicates the doctrinal concept of three supernatural persons [or personalities] each of whom possess the same uniformity of essence [or attributes] of Deity: 1) Sovereignty; 2) Righteousness; 3) Justice; 4) Love; 5) Eternal Life; 6) Omnipotence; 7) Omniscience; 8) Omnipresence; 9) Immutability; and 10) Veracity.

What exactly does this mean? That this uniformity of essence [or attributes] of God the Father are the same as those of God the Son and of God the Holy Spirit. In other words, God exists and has always existed [there was never a time when He did not exist] as three distinctly separate but equal persons [or personalities] with the same uniformity of essence [or attributes]. The Bible delineates the different role of each person of the Trinity as the plan of God for mankind unfolds in human history. In summary: God is a Triune Being; each Member of the Godhead jointly shares the same essence, majesty and eternal glory.
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Footnote: checkbaiter, this commentary may also prove helpful...

"CHAPTER IV: GOD THE TRINITY: HIS PERSON AND DEITY"

"There is one God who subsists in a threefold personality."

"Man recognizes the existence of God by intuition or innate knowledge. This means that the fact of God's existence is self-evident to a degree that attempted proofs are unnatural to the mind, and therefore uncalled for. Those facts which are received by intuition are more evident than others. Men do not ask for proofs of their own existence nor of the existence of material things which they recognize..."

"Dr. Louis Sperry Chafer (1871-1952) was the founder of Dallas Theological Seminary, and from 1924 until his death, served as its first President and Professor of Systematic Theology. His ground-breaking eight volume Systematic Theology, first published in 1947-1948, was the first systematization of a premillennial, dispensational interpretation of the Scriptures." http://www.messianicassociation.org/ezine38-lsc-major-bible-themes.htm

Originally posted by checkbaiter
One God and one Lord shown in the Old Testament. Joseph was a "type of Christ"

Gen 41:40-41
You shall be over my house, and all my people shall be ruled according to your word; only in regard to the throne will I be greater than you." 41 And Pharaoh said to Joseph, "See, I have set you over all the land of Egypt."
NKJV

One God and one Lord shown in the Old Testament. Joseph was a "type of Christ"
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Yes, Joseph was a type of Christ. And though we are not explicitly told so anywhere in the Bible, the obviousness of this is seen. Can you tell me where in the New Testament we are explicitly told that Joseph was a type of Christ ? I think you can't.

Can I find where "Trinity" or "Triune God" is explicitly stated in the New Testament? No I cannot. But as in the case of Joseph being a type of Christ, it is apparent that God is Father - Son - Holy Spirit.

And I would add that also Abraham is a type of the Father.
And you might notice that Isaac is certainly a type of the Son.
And Jacob surely is a story of the transformation of a man by the Holy Spirit from, a heal holder to a prince of God.

So the Trinity is revealed in Genesis for those looking deeper into the typology there. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are a composite symbol of the Trinity dispensing God into man.

The reigning Joseph is the result. Joseph is the reigning aspect of the fully transformed Jacob. And Jacob stands for the transforming work of the Third of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit.

Originally posted by sonship

And I would add that also Abraham is a type of the Father.
And you might notice that Isaac is certainly a type of the Son.
And Jacob surely is a story of the transformation of a man by the Holy Spirit from, a heal holder to a prince of God.

So the Trinity is revealed in Genesis for those looking deeper into the typology there. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are a composite symbol of the Trinity dispensing God into man.

You say the Trinity is revealed in Genesis by looking deeper into the typology, but is there not the inherent danger of 'over study' of the text and of seeing things that are not there? (Genuine question).

A comparison i would make (apologies,as it's the first one that comes to mind) would be to suggest that the Trinity is also revealed in Shakespeare's Macbeth. For here also we find the 'Father' in King Duncan and the 'Son' in Malcolm (the rightful heir to the throne) and Macduff surely is a man transformed of spirit, who's victory over the evil Macbeth marks a restoration of moral order.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
You say the Trinity is revealed in Genesis by looking deeper into the typology, but is there not the inherent danger of 'over study' of the text and of seeing things that are not there? (Genuine question).

A comparison i would make (apologies,as it's the first one that comes to mind) would be to suggest that the Trinity is also revealed in Shakes ...[text shortened]... n transformed of spirit, who's victory over the evil Macbeth marks a restoration of moral order.

Appreciate your literary similarity; however, these three fictional human beings had different character attributes.

Originally posted by divegeester
When Jesus said go baptise in THE name (singular) of the father AND of the son AND of the Holy Spirit, he knew exactly what he was doing. Jesus is that name.

And you say you don't believe in a Trinity.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Appreciate your literary similarity; however, these three fictional human beings had different character attributes.

Indeed, the reason of course i apologised in advance for the less than perfect example. (Be grateful i didn't seek comparison with Lord of the Rings).

My point however was to illustrate the dangers of seeking deeper meaning in text where there might not be any. Sometimes, if we search hard enough, we can find things that simply aren't there. (Da Vinci Code, Da Vinci Code).

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Indeed, the reason of course i apologised in advance for the less than perfect example. (Be grateful i didn't seek comparison with Lord of the Rings).

My point however was to illustrate the dangers of seeking deeper meaning in text where there might not be any. Sometimes, if we search hard enough, we can find things that simply aren't there. (Da Vinci Code, Da Vinci Code).

We agree.

Edit Note: "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." ~ Albert Einstein

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Yes, precisely why I've encouraged you to seek answers to your several doctrinal questions from your own pastor/teacher rather than persit in engaging others here with an exercise in futility. Once you've received clarifications from your pastor/teacher please post them in this public spirituality forum. Until then I'll respond to your cue by delaying m ...[text shortened]... d of God. Objective discussion is one thing; endless emotionally driven harangues quite another.

I'm disagreeing with you, why on earth would I want to go and ask some pastor about that? You are avoiding the point I brought up, I know it and you know it.

Originally posted by divegeester
I'm disagreeing with you, why on earth would I want to go and ask some pastor about that? You are avoiding the point I brought up, I know it and you know it.

Originally posted by divegeester
"You are not a pastor Grampy Bobby and I do not consider you an authoritative voice on scripture as your interpretations are, in my opinion, full of errors. I've pointed one of these out for the purpose of debate and you simply refuse to discuss. This is a habit many Christians use in here to avoid discussing topics they are either uncomfortable with, unab ...[text shortened]... o defend or because they simply don't like the individual poster. It's quite a hollow way to behave."
__________________________

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"Yes, precisely why I've encouraged you to seek answers to your several doctrinal questions from your own pastor/teacher rather than persit in engaging others here with an exercise in futility. Once you've received clarifications from your pastor/teacher please post them in this public spirituality forum. Until then I'll respond to your cue by delaying my replies to your posts which are not in alignment with absolute truths revealed in the Word of God. Objective discussion is one thing; endless emotionally driven harangues quite another."
___________________________

Originally posted by divegeester
"I'm disagreeing with you, why on earth would I want to go and ask some pastor about that? You are avoiding the point I brought up, I know it and you know it."
______________________

Disagree all you wish. What's become apparent in recent weeks is that you've flatly refused to accept the authority of the Word of God on the sole basis of your subjective personal opinions. Present your problematic issues to someone you respect and whose authority you accept. I hope you'll come home to your senses. With FMF missing in action and not here to support you for the past two weeks concerning your unresolved issues with an unbeliever's separation from God for eternity, it appears you're now sublimating these frustrations on other sound biblical doctrines. Please speak with your own pastor/teacher for your own and for your family's sake.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Originally posted by divegeester
"You are not a pastor Grampy Bobby and I do not consider you an authoritative voice on scripture as your interpretations are, in my opinion, full of errors. I've pointed one of these out for the purpose of debate and you simply refuse to discuss. This is a habit many Christians use in here to avoid discussing to ...[text shortened]... al doctrines. Please speak with your own pastor/teacher for your own and for your family's sake.

This is a debating forum Grampy Bobby. You have made a claim in this thread that Jesus diciples baptised "in the name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit". I have contested this claim, given you my explaination why I contest it and the scripture to support it.

Now you are having a pouty hissy-fit and refusing to engage in the discussion under the spurious guise that I'm refusing to accept your interpretation of the word of God. Have you nothing to say to refute my claim that the diciples only ever baptised "in the name of Jesus Christ", and not as you claim above?