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Some select statements of checkbaiter form the basis of discussion here:
Is the Trinity revealed in the Old Testament ?
It is well known that the foundational tenet of the Old Testament faith was, “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD” (Deut. 6:4 – KJV), and the Jews fiercely defended that faith against polytheism of all kinds. There are some singular verses that many Trinitarians today say point to the doctrine of the Trinity underlying the revelation of the Old Testament, but none expound it clearly enough that anyone would have formulated the doctrine of a Triune God from them, ...
Clarity often depends upon the seer. it is clear to many Christians that God's mysterious three-one being is seen in the Old Testament.
Let's start with God sending God in the book of Zechariah, below -
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Notice that in this passage the Sender and the One being sent are both Jehovah God. God is the Sender and the Sent One. This is a Old Testament into the Triune God.
Zechariah 2:8-11
"For thus says Jehovah of hosts, After the glory He has sent Me against the nations who plunder you; for he who touches you touches the pupil of His eye. (v.8)
For I am not waving My hand over them, and they will be plunder for those who served them; and you will know that Jehovah of hosts has sent Me. (v.9)
Give a ringing shout and rejoice, O daughter of Zion, for now I am coming, and I will dwell in your midst, declares Jehovah. (v.10)
And many nations will join themselves to Jehovah in that day and will become My people; and I will dwell in your midst, and you will know that Jehovah of hosts has sent Me to you." (v.11)
Who is the speaker? The speaker is Jehovah of hosts (v.8).
Who sent Jehovah of hosts to the nations who plunder Israel?
Jehovah of hosts - "After the glory He has sent Me against the nations who plunder you ..."
Who is the one waving His hand over the plundering nations?
Jehovah of hosts waves His hand. (v.9)
And when He waves His hand what will they know?
They will know that "Jehovah of hosts has sent Me." (v.9)
Jehovah of hosts is the Sent One.
Jehovah of hosts is the Sender.
Who is the one who will come and dwell in the midst?
It is Jehovah God - " ... for now I am coming, and I will dwell in your midst, declares Jehovah." (v.9)
When Jehovah comes to dwell in the midst what will they then know? They will know that Jehovah of hosts has sent Him
" ... and I will dwell in your midst, and you will know that Jehovah of hosts has sent Me to you." (v.11)
This is an Old Testament window into the Triune God. That is the mysterious God who can simultaneously be the Sender and the One Sent.
Originally posted by sonshipOriginally posted by sonship
Notice that in this passage the Sender and the One being sent are both Jehovah God. God is the Sender and the Sent One. This is a Old Testament into the Triune God.
Zechariah 2:8-11
[quote] [b] "For thus says Jehovah of hosts, After the glory He has sent Me against the nations who plunder you; for he who touches you touches the pupil of His eye ...[text shortened]... o the Triune God. That is the mysterious God who can simultaneously be the Sender and the One Sent.
"This is an Old Testament window into the Triune God. That is the mysterious God who can simultaneously be the Sender and the One Sent."
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyThread 164808 (Page 2)
What Do You Believe? 3) I believe that God is a Trinity of three Persons: God the Father; God the Son; and God the Holy Spirit who are all co-equal, co-infinite and co-eternal. And that each Person of the Trinity also has precisely the same attributes, perfections, and authority. "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” (Matthew 28:19-20) / "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.” (2Corinthians 13:14)
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I demonstrated God sending God in Zechariah chapter 2.
Jehovah of hosts is both Him who is sent and the One Who sent Him there.
Now we move on to see a glimpse of the Triune God in the Angel of Jehovah in Exodus. This will take several posts.
God speaking to Moses in Exodus 23 -
" I am now sending an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. (v.20)
Be careful before Him, and listen to His voice; do not rebel against Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions, for My name is in Him." (Exodus 23:20,21)
It is not at all to be taken for granted that God says "My name is in Him" . For God to say "My name is in Him" means that God the "I AM THAT I AM" is in this Messanger - this Angel.
God goes on -
"For if you will indeed listen to His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. (v.22)
For My Angel will go before you and bring you to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perissites and the Canaanites, the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off. " (v.23)
Grampy Bobby, thanks for your confirmation from the New Testament. We will examine also the Old Testament concerning this Angel in whom God's name is.
My goal is to convince the open minded reader that in this Angel sent to lead the Israelites into Canaan. This too is a window into the mysterious triune being of God even in the Old Testament.
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyDid the disciples baptise in the "name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit"?
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” (Matthew 28:19-20)
The Trinity doctrine is very interesting to me, I currently 'think' that I believe the same as checkbaiter on this matter....that is....God is God only, and Jesus is God's Son....that they are not the same entity. I would say that I am still learning.
My question to sonship, and checkbaiter as well. Is it possible that this thread, and any evidence provided in this thread.....that a person 'would' actually change their belief system with any scripture provided? Meaning....would sonship be persuaded by checkbaiter that the trinity is not true.....or would checkbaiter become a believer in the trinity by any scripture that sonship, or any poster provides?
Checkbaiter provided a link, in a different thread about 20 reasons why the trinity is not a true doctrine. I read that entire article, and it seems overwhelming proof that the trinity is not a true Bible fact.
I am very curious about where this thread will go, and will watch and read all posts. I am not one who can quote scripture as well as others, so.....for now, I just wanted to say that I am very happy to see this thread by sonship.
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According to Exodus 23:20 this Angel of Jehovah was sent by Jehovah, As in Zechariah 2:8,9 both the Sender and the Sent One are God.
Those who are more concerned with systematic theology may disagree. They also might not see why we say the Son and the Father are one. It is easy to point out that the Father answered the Son Who prayed to Him. But we have the Jehovah of hosts as both the Sent One and the Sender in Zechariah 2:8,9.
And this Angel of Jehovah was God Himself in Exodus 3:2.
Verse 2 says "The Angel of Jehovah appeared unto him [Moses] in a flame of fire out of the midst of a thorn-bush." As we continued to read we see that it was actually Jehovah God who appeared to Moses and spoke to him.
Verse 4 - "And when Jehovah saw that he had turned aside to look, God called to him out of the midst of the thornbush and said, Moses, Moses. And he said Here I am.
Verse 6 - "And He said, I am the God of your father; the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God."
Verse 14 - "And God said to Moses, I AM WHO I AM. And He said, thus you shall say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you."
Verse 16 - "Go, and gather the elders of Israel together, and say to them, Jehovah, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, has appeared to me, saying, I have surely visited you and seen what is being done to you in Egypt."
The Sent One, the Messenger, the Angel of Jehovah was God Himself. It is not wonder then that in 23:21 God says of the Angel - "My name is in Him".
Why is the name of Jehovah in the Angel of Jehovah? It is because this sent Angel is God Himself. If the Angel were not Jehovah, how could Jehovah's name be in Him? The name of the person is identical with the person himself.
We cannot separate a person from his name, for his name indicates his very being. We speak of ourselves as persons, but we identify ourselves by name.
The name of Jehovah the sending God was in the Angel and inseparable from the Angel. This was an Old Testament window into the three-one nature of God. It was a glimpse.
In the New Testament we see the Son with the Father coming as the Divine "We" to make an abode with the lovers of the Son (John 14:23).
Sonship, when Jesus prayed to God in the garden......asking if this cup could be passed, meaning death......isn't it a very logical conclusion that Jesus was praying to 'someone else'? There are just too many times in the quotes of Jesus, that He is clearly speaking about the 'Father' as a completely different 'person'.
I am not a Bible scholar, and don't know the full reason WHY the people 1500 years ago decided to claim that Jesus must be God....there seems to be politics and power involved.....the same as today's politics.....but, the overwhelming proof seems to lie in the fact that Jesus was God's Son ONLY. He called God the Father so many times in the Bible, that it almost seems impossible to believe that Jesus was talking to himself?
Have you read checkbaiter's link? The 20 reasons that the trinity is not true?
There just seems to be too much evidence that the trinity does NOT make any sense at all.
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Originally posted by chaney3My replies will probably sound forced in the direction of the Trinity glimpsed on in the Old Testament.
Sonship, when Jesus prayed to God in the garden......asking if this cup could be passed, meaning death......isn't it a very logical conclusion that Jesus was praying to 'someone else'?
Yes. Very logical.
There are just too many times in the quotes of Jesus, that He is clearly speaking about the 'Father' as a completely different 'person'.
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Yes. There are many passages revealing the "twoness" of the Father and the Son. And there are passages revealing the "oneness" of the Father and the Son.
As a lover of this "Wonderful" Person, I reserve the right to believe both. And I trust the God who has spoken both.
I am not a Bible scholar, and don't know the full reason WHY the people 1500 years ago decided to claim that Jesus must be God.
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Further back than 1,500 years the prophet Isaiah prophesied that a child ... born would be called "Mighty God" and a "Son ... given" is to be called "Eternal Father".
You don't have to use the excuse of not being a Bible scholar. You only need to read Isaiah 9:6 and hopefully do some praying to God concerning it.
Just read the Bible aloud with a fully opened heart and a willingness to be changed by God. And see what the Holy Spirit would impress upon you. Reading accompanied with thanksgiving and confession of your known sins is effective.
God is not REAL to many people because of the separation between them and God involving confessed sins
...there seems to be politics and power involved.....the same as today's politics.....but, the overwhelming proof seems to lie in the fact that Jesus was God's Son ONLY. He called God the Father so many times in the Bible, that it almost seems impossible to believe that Jesus was talking to himself?
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There was definitely politics involved in some important church councils. But Isaiah 8:6 was a mysterious passage there in Scripture before politics played any part in what Christians decided to coin as phrases.
So you can see that Isaiah 9:6 it is very mysterious. But if you think on the matter just a bit we are talking about a Life which is unlimited - and Eternal Person. We are dealing with One who is the very of all being.
The universe itself testifies His unlimited power and His divine nature. I think. Would it not be typical that there is something about GOD which is so far transcendent to us that we have to take it on faith ?
You see I don't think ANYONE wanting to invent a new religion would deliberately come up with something SO perplexing as the Trinity. It tickles me when people assume that some fellows deliberately concocted such a mind boggling matter.
No, chaney3, the Triune God must be Life beyond what we are able to conceive. But .... BUT ... we can know Him, fellowship with Him and enjoy Him.
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." (2 Cor. 13:14)
This passage is not about systematized theology. It is about experience, about communion and enjoyment. The Trinity is for our experience.
Have you read checkbaiter's link? The 20 reasons that the trinity is not true?
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I may get a chance to offer 20 responses.
There just seems to be too much evidence that the trinity does NOT make any sense at all.
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I witnessed both of my children be born. The event astounded me. I simply could not understand how really another human being like me and my wife came out of my wife's body. But it is true. And we know SOMETHING about it.
Now we are dealing with God Himself - the Ultimate Divine and Eternal Living One - a Life beyond limitation.
There may be some things about God which everything in us wants to say "But ... that's IMPOSSIBLE!"
He is "Wonderful" - full of wonder (Isaiah 9:6).
Originally posted by sonshipYou're welcome. Many "open minded readers" here may not have an adequate frame of reference.
I demonstrated God sending God in [b]Zechariah chapter 2.
Jehovah of hosts is both Him who is sent and the One Who sent Him there.
Now we move on to see a glimpse of the Triune God in the Angel of Jehovah in Exodus. This will take several posts.
God speaking to Moses in Exodus 23 -
[quote] " I am now sending an Angel before you ...[text shortened]... Canaan. This too is a window into the mysterious triune being of God even in the Old Testament.
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyGrampy Bobby, the trinity doctrine is FAR from a truth. I have been waiting for Bible scripture to back it up, and quite frankly......there is a LOT more scripture to prove AGAINST this doctrine. You have made it clear that you believe in the trinity, but have provided NO proof of it.
You're welcome. Many "open minded readers" here may not have an adequate frame of reference.
Checkbaiter has provided more proof against the trinity. And my question still stands. Will anybody waver from, or abandon their belief in the trinity, if proof can be provided?
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Isaiah 9:6
Isaiah 9:6
“And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace….” (NIV)
1. Trinitarians should admit that this verse is translated improperly just from the fact that Jesus is never called the “Everlasting Father” anywhere else in Scripture. Indeed, Trinitarians correctly deny that Jesus is the “Everlasting Father.” It is a basic tenet of Trinitarian doctrine that Christians should “neither confound the Persons nor divide the Substance” (Athanasian Creed). Thus, if this verse is translated properly, then Trinitarian Christians have a real problem. However, the phrase is mistranslated. The word translated “everlasting” is actually “age,” and the correct translation is that Jesus will be called “father of the [coming] age.”
To read the entire article or watch the video...
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/videos/isaiah-9-6
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Common verses Trinitarians use to explain the Trinity
The following are clear explanations of the verses in the Bible that Trinitarians have sometimes used in attempts to “prove” the Trinity and to substantiate that Jesus is God. Since there are an overwhelming number of very clear verses about Jesus Christ’s identity and his distinction from God, and since God’s Word has no contradictions, these comparatively few verses must fit with the many clear verses, and they do.
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/verses