Originally posted by lucifershammerLet me ask this straight out - do you think you know enough about what I do when I'm not posting on RHP to say that I'm not "taking a stand" or other things you want me to do?
Cannot say that I do, but if you really cared about what was happening, you would be proud of it and standing tall with your actions. As it is, you fumble about mumbling and doing nothing.
Yes, I'm not about to join a chorus of voices attacking the Church when I'm convinced that most of those voices have no desire to preserve or sanctify the Church. This week the choir will sing about sex abuse scandals, next week it will be about the Inquisition, the week after that it will be about abortion, or something else. It's clear to me that balanced reporting isn't forthcoming from this crowd, so I attempt to provide the counter-weight.
I am not telling you to join a chorus - I am saying do something about it. Take a positive path instead of the one you mention. I find animal abuse vile and I donate time to treating the problem. I think enviromental issues need to be addressed, so I donate money to help with those issues, to a cause I know is working to resolve issues.
What are you doing to improve your church? throwing money into the tray that comes around? Do you know what happens with that money?
I have no problems facing up to the Church's errors. That doesn't mean I have to scream it off the rooftop every chance I get. That might earn me brownie points with a certain class of people, but it's not going to achieve anything more than the coverage these issues already have received.
You have been dodging it for the entire thread. I think that is the single biggest issue with the Christian population - they cant or wont admit fault with the faith. They dodge and evade and cover of and redirect and adamantly deny.
On the other hand, it's far too easy to forget that there's so much good the Church does (and has done). It's also easy to forget that many things alleged about the Church are either exaggerated or downright false. Even Catholics can forget what their faith, community and Church means in the midst of all this hysteria; I see my role as reminding them. I may not do a great or even good job of that, but that is my assessment of what the Church needs right now.
I am not talking about what good the church does. Many organizations do good. Hell, PETA does some good....
As I said earlier, when I feel that the coverage of the Church is more balanced and honest from the other side, you'll find my public views more to your liking.
I don't want your views to be to my liking. I want you to face up to your faith's faults.
Originally posted by KnightWulfeAs it is, you fumble about mumbling and doing nothing.
[b]Let me ask this straight out - do you think you know enough about what I do when I'm not posting on RHP to say that I'm not "taking a stand" or other things you want me to do?
Cannot say that I do, but if you really cared about what was happening, you would be proud of it and standing tall with your actions. As it is, you fumble about mumbling ...[text shortened]... nt your views to be to my liking. I want you to face up to your faith's faults.[/b]
You've admitted yourself you don't know enough about my personal life to make such an assertion.
What are you doing to improve your church? throwing money into the tray that comes around? Do you know what happens with that money?
As a matter of fact, I do (indeed, I make it a point to do so). That's why I continue to "throw" money into the tray that comes around.
I am not talking about what good the church does.
No one is - that's my point.
I want you to face up to your faith's faults.
As I said before, I have no problems facing up to my Church's faults. I'm not going to defend them (except when I think they're over- or misrepresented), nor am I going to say that I'm anything but ashamed of them.
But I also see its greatness. And I'm not going to say I'm anything but proud of that.
Church-bashing may be in vogue these days but, I'm sorry - I'll pass the public show of schadenfreude.
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Originally posted by lucifershammerOk, same circumstances, different situation:
As I said before, I have no problems facing up to my Church's faults. I'm not going to defend them (except when I think they're over- or misrepresented), nor am I going to say that I'm anything but ashamed of them.
Your good friend is found to be one responsible for a series of rapes that stretch back for more than a year - 32 instances. He admits guilt. He has done good in his life, but to have raped 32 women....
Are you just going to be ashamed of him and keep on keepin on or are you going to be outraged and horrified by his actions?
You would disaccociate faster than I could say "porkbelly."
The only difference is that your faith is in question. The leaders of your faith are the ones guilty.
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Originally posted by KnightWulfeSubstitute "brother" for "good friend" above - that'll be a closer analogy.
Ok, same circumstances, different situation:
Your good friend is found to be one responsible for a series of rapes that stretch back for more than a year - 32 instances. He admits guilt. He has done good in his life, but to have raped 32 women....
Are you just going to be ashamed of him and keep on keepin on or are you going to be outraged and horr y difference is that your faith is in question. The leaders of your faith are the ones guilty.
Actually, even if it were just a good friend, I'm not sure I'd dissociate myself as quickly as you suggest.
Tell me something - what's your position on the war in Iraq?
Originally posted by lucifershammerSubstitute "brother" for "good friend" above - that'll be a closer analogy.
Ok - brother.
Actually, even if it were just a good friend, I'm not sure I'd dissociate myself as quickly as you suggest.
The anti-abortionist say the same thing about abortion, respectively, however if their daughter was raped or if they were raped and impregnated by a vile criminal, they would abort before I could say "porkbe..."
Tell me something - what's your position on the war in Iraq?
My position on the war in Iraq has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation.
It involves war, not rape and it involves the Islamic faith, not Christianity. Stop changing the subject.
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Originally posted by lucifershammerYou can't have the best of both worlds.
On the other hand, it's far too easy to forget that there's so much good the Church does (and has done).
You can't allow the Church to disclaim responsibility for evil when its agents do evil things, yet give it glory for doing good when its agents do good things. Which does the deeds: the Church or its agents?
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Originally posted by DoctorScribblesFirst, priests are not "employees" of the Church in the normal sense of the term. They do not do their work to get paid.
You can't have the best of both worlds.
You can't allow the Church to disclaim responsibility for evil when its employees do evil things, yet give it glory for doing good when its employees do good things. Which does the deeds: the Church or its employees?
Second, when a priest does what he is mandated to do by the Church, it is the Church acting through the priest that does the work. So, both of them share glory or blame in doing the work.
When the priest explicitly or implicitly violates the mandate, then he is acting alone.
EDIT: We've been over this ground before.
Originally posted by lucifershammerHe is not acting alone if he is making use of resources that the Church has empowered him with because of his agency, especially when the Church knows that he is using those resources for evil ends.
When the priest explicitly or implicitly violates the mandate, then he is acting alone.
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesIf his superiors are not aware of his evil deeds, then he is still acting alone in misusing the resources the Church provides for his ministry.
He is not acting alone if he is making use of resources that the Church has empowered him with because of his agency, especially when the Church knows that he is using those resources for evil ends.
If his superiors are aware of his misdeeds, and turn a blind eye or do not take reasonable steps to prevent it, then they share the responsibility. In this case, however, the superiors are violating the mandate of the Church.
Originally posted by KnightWulfeAfter going at me personally for three pages, I find it remarkable you shy away at the first sign that something affecting you personally has come up.
Then use the analogy - You don't need my opinion to make one.
Nevertheless, I'll go on. You are no doubt aware of the happenings (in as much as anybody is aware) at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay. No doubt you will find some (many?) of these happenings offensive and shocking. You may even consider this whole business of the war in Iraq offensive.
Question: Why do you not consider abandoning your American citizenship and taking up the citizenship of another country?
The assumption here, of course, is that you are an American citizen. If not, then the example can be suitably modified for whichever country you are the citizen of.
In case your objections should be primarily practical (e.g. job, mortgage, studies etc.) - let's suppose you had no practical problems taking up the citizenship of another country.
If you could, would you?
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Originally posted by lucifershammerI shy away from nothing. You bring up a topic (The war in Iraq) that I am not personally involved in, have no friends involved in, have no family involved in and really have no ties to whatsoever. However, I will comment.
After going at me personally for three pages, I find it remarkable you shy away at the first sign that something affecting you personally has come up.
Nevertheless, I'll go on. You are no doubt aware of the happenings (in as much as anybody is aware) at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay. No doubt you will find some (many?) of these happenings offensive o practical problems taking up the citizenship of another country.
If you could, would you?
You make a bad analogy. You can CHOOSE you faith and you CHOOSE to continue in your faith despite these occurances. Choosing your faith does not require you to give up anything. I cannot CHOOSE the fact that I was born in the US and and the CHOICE to move out of the US would cost much more money than I can afford, and I dont have the option to just CHOOSE to leave. I have a family that I support that would be affected by something of that nature. Of course, I am sure you did not consider that.
As far as the war - I disagree with the war in Iraq. Hell, I disagree with war... There is always a peaceful solution.Most just dont choose to take that path.
Originally posted by KnightWulfeYou seem to have missed the last two paragraphs of my post.
I shy away from nothing. You bring up a topic (The war in Iraq) that I am not personally involved in, have no friends involved in, have no family involved in and really have no ties to whatsoever. However, I will comment.
You make a bad analogy. You can CHOOSE you faith and you CHOOSE to continue in your faith despite these occurances. Choosing your f ...[text shortened]... isagree with war... There is always a peaceful solution.Most just dont choose to take that path.
If you had no practical impediment (money, wife and kids) to abandoning US citizenship, would you?
Btw, you are wrong to say that choosing one's faith does not require one to give up anything.
So, what's the answer?
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Originally posted by lucifershammerIf you had no practical impediment (money, wife and kids) to abandoning US citizenship, would you?
You seem to have missed the last two paragraphs of my post.
So, what's the answer?
No, but that is because what is occuring WILL change when the leadership of this nation changes, in only a few years. That is one of those strange things about democracy...
As to things I dont like - I stand up and make a difference. Example being those I mentioned in a previous post in this thread - animals and the enviroment. I do - I make my voice heard. I make a difference. Were I in your shoes in the Christian (Catholic) church - I would start a petition to have all of the guilty parties tried in a court of law as they should be and I would push my local church to take donations for the rape victims and their familes. I would DO...not sit on my proverbial arse! That is the difference between us - you sit and tout this and that....what are you DOING to change it? If you are really doing something, then please tell us what you are doing? How are you affecting the system to see that these rapes do not continue?
Btw, you are wrong to say that choosing one's faith does not require one to give up anything.
Pray tell - what did you have to give up to be Christian....besides your free will?